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Gender treatment in fantasy, according to Bakker
Still from Pat's Fantasy Hotlist, interview of R. Scott Bakker, about the Prince of Nothing epic fantasy series which I reviewed here.
Now, I'd argue with the form of the question (it's arguable whether it's a genre convention "to subvert gender stereotypes by presenting worlds in which strong, independent female characters are plausible"...), but the subject of females characters in that series is certainly interesting.
For those who haven't read it, the world presented is indeed inescapably gritty and brutally violent, especially against women and there's a strong sense of realism to it.
Of the three characters that Bakker mentions, though, I'd say that only Esmenet, the "harlot", is a real success, she's the only one that can be seen as sympathetic and strong, and her story is compelling. The two others serve more as plot device than anything IMHO. The "harridan" doesn't even have a PoV and is intensely creepy (not that creepiness is exceptionnal in those books ^^), and the "waif", Serwë, is victimised, shallow and stupid enough that despite the sympathy I felt for what she lived through, I would never say I found her interesting as a character.
I do agree about Bakker's point about "problematizing", which is worthy enough, although in this case one should also take into consideration the context of the genre, because if every story is one of gritty realism, then the problematization may be more of a reinforcement than he would think.
Then there's the issue which he fails to mention, which is the treatment of sex and sexuality, and of the bad guys of the setting utilisation of sex in extremely creepy way, and how it relates to his treatment of gender.
Thoughts?
- The genre exhibits a strong (albeit recent) tradition for subverting gender stereotypes by presenting worlds in which strong, independent female characters are plausible or even expected. Yet your world is as patriarchal as the reality that inspired it. I expect that this theme makes up for a good part of the discussions you have about your creation, possibly detracting from what you actually want to talk about. Is it difficult to resist the temptation to put something like a bad-ass tomboy warrior-princess with snappy dialogue and a heart of gold into the books?
First, let me say that I think I should be called out on the carpet on this issue, simply because I cover some pretty troubling ground. I certainly don’t believe in "quota characterization," either to be politically correct or to broaden the "gender appeal" of my books. Leave this for the after-school specials. I also don’t think that depiction automatically equals endorsement. The question that people should be asking, it seems to me, is one of whether I reinforce negative gender stereotypes or problematize them. If the books provide enough grist to argue this question, then the answer, it seems to me, automatically becomes the latter.
But the fact remains that a lot of people get hung up on my female characters: On the one hand, I self-consciously chose the harlot, the waif, and the harridan for my female characters, yet some seem to think a kind of unconscious moral defect chose them for me. If so, it would be a truly colossal coincidence that I would happen to pick the three misogynic types - I mean, isn’t it obvious that I’m up to something critical? On the other hand, I wanted my fantasy world to be realistic, to temper our yearning for premodern times with a good look at how ugly things got, particularly in times of war. When bad things happen to my female characters, it’s the circumstances that are being criticized, not the characters themselves!
But people get hunches while they read, and once they do, confirmation bias goes to work (and this is simply one among many reasons why we always buy our own bullshit), and the text, I think, possesses more than enough ambiguities for people spin any number of self-validating interpretations. It’s when they insist their interpretation is the only interpretation, or even worse, that it captures what’s really going on in my bean, that I become baffled.
Now, I'd argue with the form of the question (it's arguable whether it's a genre convention "to subvert gender stereotypes by presenting worlds in which strong, independent female characters are plausible"...), but the subject of females characters in that series is certainly interesting.
For those who haven't read it, the world presented is indeed inescapably gritty and brutally violent, especially against women and there's a strong sense of realism to it.
Of the three characters that Bakker mentions, though, I'd say that only Esmenet, the "harlot", is a real success, she's the only one that can be seen as sympathetic and strong, and her story is compelling. The two others serve more as plot device than anything IMHO. The "harridan" doesn't even have a PoV and is intensely creepy (not that creepiness is exceptionnal in those books ^^), and the "waif", Serwë, is victimised, shallow and stupid enough that despite the sympathy I felt for what she lived through, I would never say I found her interesting as a character.
I do agree about Bakker's point about "problematizing", which is worthy enough, although in this case one should also take into consideration the context of the genre, because if every story is one of gritty realism, then the problematization may be more of a reinforcement than he would think.
Then there's the issue which he fails to mention, which is the treatment of sex and sexuality, and of the bad guys of the setting utilisation of sex in extremely creepy way, and how it relates to his treatment of gender.
Thoughts?
no subject
You just haven't read enough badly written slash fanfics, have you? Too many, I'm afraid. But those are written by women, and more's the pity. I'm not saying that I want to read men selling their bodies, I'm saying I want men who think that women selling their bodies is so grand to consider themselves in the same position and approach the issue with less gender bias and more universal humanity. We are not so different.
That would sure take a lot of work. ...actually, it's less "work" and more tasteless squick humor ripped off of 4chan. "I swear I didn't know she was three!" just never gets old. Also, *dramatic tear* he's doing it all for the children. Literally.
....okay, that may go a few steps past "subverting cliches" and straight into "WTF why." I don't care, since that was kind of the point. (Another cliche I was trying to subvert was the whole, "unlikeable hero" or "antihero" thing. People try to make their heroes grittier and meaner by having them kill and torture with an apparent lack of conscience. I figure if you're going to make your hero unlikeable, go for the gold. Or, "This antihero thing has gone too far.")
Bakker actually has several male characters get raped in his novels, BTW.
...which says less about equal opportunity and more about an obsession with sexual violence. Hardly uncommon in today's culture. We seem transfixed by rape and pedophilia, like a train wreck we just can't look away from. (The reason I again bring pedo into this again is because of various paranoid people who have never met a pedophile but constantly go on about strangers who must want their children, and the dangers of
MySpacethe interbutts. For something that has had no contact with their lives, they certainly give it a lot of thought. Women who are ruled by a constant fear of rape, despite never having been raped, are no better off.)I am also reminded of Fushigi Yuugi, which, although I enjoyed it, I noticed that just about every plot point seemed to have rape in it somewhere, and both male and female characters dealt with the issues of being raped.
Someday, I will figure out what this absolute fascination with rape is, and how it ties into twoo wub. FFN has sent me a total curveball with all its bizarre rapefics. Including a Fruits Basket fic in which Tohru is raped by an anonymous stranger, and hours later, one of the boys (Yuki, maybe? It was all so OOC I can't recall) heals her poor violated vee-jay-jay with some nice soothing vaginal intercourse. Just what the doctor ordered!
RE: misogyny and male privilege, sadly, they are probably every bit as common in women as they are in men. I wish a VJJ granted immunity from the ignorance, but it does not. (A feminist once remarked: "Why is it that every time I look up from a gang rape, it's women holding my arms and legs?" While that's probably hyperbole, I have sympathy for what she's trying to say.)
I shall look into that book as soon as the sky puts the "firm" in firmament and stops falling on me. Although I warn you, I am extremely squeamish about torture, and nearly puked all over Goodkind's books for that very reason. (And used them to smack the guy who recced them to me. Skinning alive, what the holy fuck!)
no subject
She was actually one of the easier characters to write - though now, after having learned more about prostitution, I’m inclined to think I romanticized her way too much. The crazy thing is that if I had made her realistic, I’m pretty sure she would have been almost universally despised, and I would have been even more severely criticized for making her "weak."
no subject
no subject
Well I did link to my precedent review : http://etrangere.livejournal.com/141300.html?nc=7
The story is inspired by the First Crusade, following the launch of a Holy War through the eyes of several characters. The story is also about the raise to power of Kellhus a man raised in an isolated sect, the Dunyains, which studies reason (the Logos) and understands the world in purely determinist form (what comes before determines what comes after), as a result of which as well as a modicum of eugenist practice, make the Dunyains capable of level of understanding and manipulations of their fellow humans that is properly superhuman. Kellhus is NOT a sympathetic protagonist. His worship of the Logos makes him purely rationalist in a way that denies human emotions and moralities. Only the goal matters. The story, finally, is also the first step into the broader story of the Second Appocalypse as signs of the returns of the Consult and of the No God draws near. Those are the bad guys who use sexuality in an intensely creepy and alien way.
The main characters, apart from Kellhus, are Achamian, a Sorcerer, deeply skeptical and knowledge-loving man, who, like all Sorcerers is seen as damned by the faith of the region, and who as a member of the Mandate School of Magic is always on the look out for signs of the Consult's doings (the rest of the world takes the Mandate for fools and paranoiac for this), Esmenet, the whore, lover and friend of Achamian, who shows much intelligence despite her status in life; Cnaïur the brutal barbarian whose violence and rapes can never erase his past shame; and, arguably, Conphas, the genius megalomaniac and possibly sociopathic general and heir of a decadent empire. All those characters are really well characterized. But not always sympathetically.
The story's main assets are a rich, exotic and excellent setting, brillant characterization, efficient writing and truly epic scope.
....okay, that may go a few steps past "subverting cliches" and straight into "WTF why."
That's what I was going to say.
People try to make their heroes grittier and meaner by having them kill and torture with an apparent lack of conscience. I figure if you're going to make your hero unlikeable, go for the gold. Or, "This antihero thing has gone too far.")
The antihero thing only go to far when everybody do it and do it in the very same way, which always involves handsome males with the 24 clock shadow, who wear bad ass longcoat and use katana/shoot gun/both while uttering (bad) sarcastic one liners. That particular cliché, I could do without but I never tire out of antiheros :p
...which says less about equal opportunity and more about an obsession with sexual violence.
Arguably, yes.
I'm no fonder of the pedophile hysteria-witchhunt (and its effect on LJland) than you are.
aaaah, Yuu Watase. Yeah, Fushigi Yuugi is one hell of a trainwreck. Not that it's the only one. I do love the shoujos, but sometimes, my, they do bring the crack.
Someday, I will figure out what this absolute fascination with rape is, and how it ties into twoo wub.
Beats me. I've written noncon, but I never saw it as sexy. Then again... I suppose I'm not one to harsh against someone else's kinks, given mine.
Including a Fruits Basket fic in which Tohru is raped by an anonymous stranger, and hours later, one of the boys (Yuki, maybe? It was all so OOC I can't recall) heals her poor violated vee-jay-jay with some nice soothing vaginal intercourse.
What a coincidence, just a couple of hours ago, I was reading a fic with the exact same plot except it was Obi-Wan/Anakin, complete with
AliensVoyeurs Made Them Do It. Boy, was it bad.And then there's Gravitation, where it's canon and after a gangrape *facepalms*
RE: misogyny and male privilege, sadly, they are probably every bit as common in women as they are in men.
I know :(
I am extremely squeamish about torture
Oh well. Maybe you shouldn't read them, then.