I don't think it was trolling so much as just a really really poor attempt at pointed humor. I do agree that he should have known better.
However, because I think he was trying to make a point about his perceived ostracisation and systemic persecution of Israeli Arabs by the Israeli government (however faulty his perception may be), I don't think it hits the auto-anti-Semitism bell. I think it's a horrible comparison, and patently offensive, and I think he would have done better had he just gone with his later comparison of the Israeli Department of Homeland Security. I don't think it shows (in this case) a prejudice against or hostility towards Jews, individually or collectively, or the Jewish homeland in the state of Israel.
In that sense, I agree with Ran that I don't think it deserved deletion.
However, I think Anne-Elisa had every right to be offended and to get angry. I think she was right to do so. I think she had the right to disagree with Ran's non-removal, though I personally don't. I also think she would have served herself much better by posting the calmer and more explanatory reply in the thread -- the one that she put to Ran originally, and that he suggested she post in the thread herself. (However, I understand not wanting to explain again and again why something is offensive, and getting extremely upset when you feel forced to do so. Having to calmly say "you know, your point of view is really discriminatory and pointlessly offensive, and here are all of the reasons which you won't bother listening to" is painful.)
I also think she was not calm enough when she posted her own thread -- as pointed out in her LJ, parts of it can be read as "forget how badly the Palestinians are being treated now, the Jews are too and have historical persecution on top of it!" It's not what she meant, and she took steps to correct it once it was pointed out to her, but it could completely have lead to another flamewar about the situation. Again, I'm no mod, but it seems obvious to me why Ran closed it.
Similarly, I felt uncomfortable when she put in her goodbye thread that it's because of mod decisions. Not because I don't think that's a valid reason to go, or that I think she shouldn't make her disagreement clear, but because it can -- as it has -- lead to lots of people joining in to say "yea, the mods suck!" That's unproductive too, IMO, despite valid policy disagreement.
To respond to that by saying Ran supports hate speech, even though I can understand being mad about the closure? Totally out of line. And, though I disagree with the suspension, I can completely see why perhaps trying to get her to calm down before posting again might have been a good thing. I just think suspension is totally counterproductive from that point of view. (On the other hand, if there's a precedent of others being suspended for the same sort of thing, I don't think she should be treated differently just because she's been around for so long.)
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So, there it is. I think you were right to get mad, and be offended. I agree with the thrusts of your points, even though I don't always like the way they were expressed. I'm not going to try to say that you (or anybody else) "should do X" or "should have reacted Y", because that would be totally patronising. I'm going to stand by my comment that the whole situation was not handled particularly well on any side, but hindsight/a distant view is always a different perception than at the time / when one is involved directly.
I didn't say it to you originally because I wasn't going to say it to *anybody*. Now that I have, though, I don't want you to feel that I've talked behind your back. Read it, react, and if you want to talk to me afterwards, I'll still be here.
no subject
I don't think it was trolling so much as just a really really poor attempt at pointed humor. I do agree that he should have known better.
However, because I think he was trying to make a point about his perceived ostracisation and systemic persecution of Israeli Arabs by the Israeli government (however faulty his perception may be), I don't think it hits the auto-anti-Semitism bell. I think it's a horrible comparison, and patently offensive, and I think he would have done better had he just gone with his later comparison of the Israeli Department of Homeland Security. I don't think it shows (in this case) a prejudice against or hostility towards Jews, individually or collectively, or the Jewish homeland in the state of Israel.
In that sense, I agree with Ran that I don't think it deserved deletion.
However, I think Anne-Elisa had every right to be offended and to get angry. I think she was right to do so. I think she had the right to disagree with Ran's non-removal, though I personally don't. I also think she would have served herself much better by posting the calmer and more explanatory reply in the thread -- the one that she put to Ran originally, and that he suggested she post in the thread herself. (However, I understand not wanting to explain again and again why something is offensive, and getting extremely upset when you feel forced to do so. Having to calmly say "you know, your point of view is really discriminatory and pointlessly offensive, and here are all of the reasons which you won't bother listening to" is painful.)
I also think she was not calm enough when she posted her own thread -- as pointed out in her LJ, parts of it can be read as "forget how badly the Palestinians are being treated now, the Jews are too and have historical persecution on top of it!" It's not what she meant, and she took steps to correct it once it was pointed out to her, but it could completely have lead to another flamewar about the situation. Again, I'm no mod, but it seems obvious to me why Ran closed it.
Similarly, I felt uncomfortable when she put in her goodbye thread that it's because of mod decisions. Not because I don't think that's a valid reason to go, or that I think she shouldn't make her disagreement clear, but because it can -- as it has -- lead to lots of people joining in to say "yea, the mods suck!" That's unproductive too, IMO, despite valid policy disagreement.
To respond to that by saying Ran supports hate speech, even though I can understand being mad about the closure? Totally out of line. And, though I disagree with the suspension, I can completely see why perhaps trying to get her to calm down before posting again might have been a good thing. I just think suspension is totally counterproductive from that point of view. (On the other hand, if there's a precedent of others being suspended for the same sort of thing, I don't think she should be treated differently just because she's been around for so long.)
-------- End post from elsewhere --------
So, there it is. I think you were right to get mad, and be offended. I agree with the thrusts of your points, even though I don't always like the way they were expressed. I'm not going to try to say that you (or anybody else) "should do X" or "should have reacted Y", because that would be totally patronising. I'm going to stand by my comment that the whole situation was not handled particularly well on any side, but hindsight/a distant view is always a different perception than at the time / when one is involved directly.
I didn't say it to you originally because I wasn't going to say it to *anybody*. Now that I have, though, I don't want you to feel that I've talked behind your back. Read it, react, and if you want to talk to me afterwards, I'll still be here.