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Code Geass Finale thoughts
An okay episode. I was expecting to be more surprised than I was. Way to go Sunrise, surprising me with an unsurprising ending! Nice in execution, pretty scenes and all that, and I always like a good character death scene (which it was) and Schrödinger!Lelouch makes it even better - I like this kind of open ending. Passing-of-masks is the big tradition of Masked Revolutionary Avengers everywhere so it's a fitting bit if not surprising. And I kinda love that Suzaku is condemned to live, very fitting and nice way for him to grow. On the flip side, many characters were kinda pointless in the end, or just never got to do anything to drive their own story (my big issues with CC, who is awesome otherwise, but just never does anything for herself argh!)
My big issue with this end is this bit of Fridge Logic : Lelouch's plan sucks.
Seriously, lamest plan for world peace ever. The world doesn't lack in reviled tyrans that everyone hates. This has yet to create insta world peace. The only thing Lelouch's earned is that for the 50-100 years from now on, in chats and forums when someone doesn't like what you say, they're going to compare you to Lelouch. You'd think that with the number of WW2 and Cold War era parallelism that was in Code Geass, the writers would have been aware of the fact that lots of folks being united against a common ennemy at one point of History didn't result in an era of hearts and puppies. If the people from the world of Code Geass manage to get more stability, global cooperation and human rights protection than they did before, it will be thanks to the leaders that were left, the institution they'll built and the work they'll do - which Lelouch, whether dead or alive, chose not to be a part of after all the mess he caused (and even if said mess probably helped some of those leaders get into the right state of mind to create this peace it's more of a side effect than the whole of Lelouch's plan).
Does anyone see something I missed in the Zero Requiem besides DRAMA to make it a brilliant plan?
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Lelouch believed in evolution, in fighting to improve.
I can see that. It's a nice interpretation. I just think it's selfish of him too, because it leaves the hardest work to others.
After all even the CG good guys have shades of... evil.
That's always been CG's biggest strength. There's no good guys, there's a bunch of protagonists and a few antagonist, and lots of side switching all the time. No one's entirely evil, and no one's entirely good.
I think all he wanted was to give them all a chance to fit in the system and to work to improve it from within in a pacifical way
But couldn't have done that without the Zero Requiem? By working at it fairly instead of bullying his way in a rushed couple of monthes?
Of course that wouldn't have been as DRAMATIC and Lelouch certainly loves his DRAMA, but yeah...
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On this I fully agree!
But couldn't have done that without the Zero Requiem? By working at it fairly instead of bullying his way in a rushed couple of monthes?
I wish he did. I was hoping CG end would involve everyone coming to his sense, guessing Lelouch wasn't doing this because all of sudden he'd turned into a Evil Entity but that he had some other motivations, TALK about it, get some sense into him and make him realize he was 'exaggerating a bit' (understatement of the century) and then cooperate all together for a better future.
In short I wanted group effort.
Alone Lelouch didn't have many options. After Ep 20 even if he wasn't the world's enemy yet the Black Knights sure considered him as such and he didn't seem to expect them to be interested into understanding him or forgiving him. I think that while he trusted the world in their hands... he wasn't able to trust them to help him. He never, ever explains things, even when he talks with Suzaku (Ep 17) he didn't really tell him how things went letting him believe things that aren't completely true. The worst part of this is that the scapegoat thing almost worked on Suzaku. At a certain point he got Lelouch wasn't telling the whole truth but he didn't pressure him further, accepted it was all Lelouch's fault and agreed to help him, making also huge requests in exchange.
The only one who almost got an explanation from him was Euphy but things went downhill before he could finish... -_-
Also there was Shneizer to consider. He had to stop him and he believed he had to do it quickly.
And there's also the fact that, genius or not, Lelouch is 18 and with some psychological complexes of his own. So Zero Requiem isn't the best solution but probably the only one he could come up with and BELIEVE it would work.
(and yes, Lelouch is a drama king...)
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The reason I wanted everyone to come to his sense is because I think for the world to progress everyone must bear the guilt and help carrying the cross. Noone is enterely innocent here. Instead... in opposite to sharing they chose to divide. Lelouch got the blame, the others got the cross. Mind you it's a cross they would have bore anyway. Even if Lelouch had stopped acting from Ep 19, Xing-Ke and all the others would have continued with the rebellion to Britannia and the federation. They weren't geassed. Even if Lelouch had never showed up they would have continued rebelling. They probably wouldn't have accomplished as much. Would this have been better or worse?
We don't know. Without Lelouch Ougi's group would have likely died in Shinjuku, the battle at Narita would have likely been lost (resulting in Katakase and his men's death), I guess Toudo would have ended eventually being captured and exectuted.
Euphemia likely wouldn't have ended up killing people... but since we don't know what the others would have done this doesn't necessary meant the body count would have been smaller. Clovis would have still been alive and maybe, to search for CC, he might have ordered the massacre of the whole tokyo settlement. It's a guessing game of course.
I don't think however he planned to give the weight of his sins to someone else.
I think he believed it would simpler for the Black Knights to deal with the world after what he did. If he were to repent his sins all of sudden he would have probably ended up getting a death sentence anyway... but this might have caused more mess than help.
If he were to repent people might have argued he didn't deserve to die, and others might have felt guilty for taking his life if they were to guess what he planned to do.
I don't even think he searched for redemption. For him it's retribution, the price he had to pay. He didn't try to be forgiven in fact he let people believe he was a monster.
There's no God in the Christian sense in the world of CG after death. He did what he thought was best and paid the according price. He's not really apologizing for what he did just taking responsibility.
Talking would have been good but not IC. From when he was a small child he learned to live in hiding, faking his identity, trusting no one because his own father betrayed him.
... and really people didn't seem willing to listen him in Ep. 19 or 21 so I don't know if talking would have worked.
As for the Geass... he tried not to use it on the ones he loved. He used it on Kallen when he basically didn't know her, with Shirley to garant her peace of mind (she was almost insane with grief and guilt... Mao himself said his mind was a mess or something along the line), on Suzaku and Euphy by incident and on Nunnally... when he'd already decided he wanted to be despised by her too.
Basically the real problem is Lelouch's psychology. We aren't talking of a well balanced adult but of a traumatized teen. He might be smart but this doesn't mean he's capable to do always the right choices.
Shneizer is smart also and older and it's possible he lived through a less traumatic life and all he aimed was world domination through fear, ready to use people like Nunnally, Euphy and Cornelia who trusted and loved him, who were part of his family.
Really, Lelouch could have done better... but maybe this was merely the best HE could do.
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I don't agree with this. By giving Zaku the identity of Zero, he was transferring the weight of his sins onto him. I'm not saying it was because he wanted to, but by doing it, the sins transferred. People would go on believing that he was the same Zero from before... that the accomplishments he had made were all things done by the same person. Regardless of whether they are viewed as positive doings or negative doings, he still caused lives to perish as Zero, and that sin no longer was his to shoulder when he died. I'm not sure what you are talking about with the 'repenting' stuff since that is all just speculation on your part.
I know that he didn't look for redemption. That was the point I was trying to make. I think he should have - because he deserved it in my opinion. I understand why he did what he did in a sense. I'm only stating that I don't agree with it because I believe for his characterization there was a better solution to his outcome at the end of the season.
As for the communicating with others, again, because he didn't talk - I thought that this was weak to his character and poor planning from the writers BECAUSE his character has always been the type to carry burdens or suffer in silence. I think by talking or at least using his heart to communicate, it would have displayed some measure of character growth... rather than having him die with the very same personality and resolve (in regards to the wall he puts up) that he comprised in the beginning of Season 1.
Basically the real problem is Lelouch's psychology. We aren't talking of a well balanced adult but of a traumatized teen. He might be smart but this doesn't mean he's capable to do always the right choices.
You stated this perfectly. It's very true. He's good at calculating for sport, but when it comes to matters of the heart... he never learned how to plan his actions accordingly. But, if he had learned to vocalize his pain, I think -while this is another romanticized view- it would have really shown that he had become a man and that he had grown... and that he wasn't just the teenager who lived from one day to the next, ridding himself of boredom through shady games with adults.
Anyhow, I understand what you're saying. I was just stating what I felt would have been a more well-rounded ending. But, it's only my opinion. :)
Zero and Suzaku
Wasn't Zero declared dead by the Black Knights in R2 Ep 20?
Lelouch had turned Zero into a symbol. Zero's the one who fight for justice against evil.
It's like Zorro's mask whom, in some movies, is passed from a generation to another.
People know the Zorro that was fighting... let's say 40 years before can't be the same who's fighting now but it didn't matter to them. He fight for the same things. He has the same spirit. No one question if he's the previous Zorro or not and no one really care. It's clear he's not the same but he's Zorro all the same.
So... Suzaku is Zero... without people necessary thinking he's the same Zero as before... but this might be just me. (I hope this makes sense... I'm no good at explaining myself in English)
Also... Suzaku won't have to make the same miracles. The world is technically in peace, the Black Knights know he isn't the real Zero, Xing-Ke and Shneizer can make strategies for him and he can impress the world with his miraculous Knightmare ability that previous Zero didn't have.
Re: Zero and Suzaku
LOL! You explain yourself quite well!!! Especially if English isn't your native language.
Re: Zero and Suzaku
I guess the punishment for firing Freya... (he should have escaped from Kallen as Lloyd said) but that's merely my assumption. It might refer to Suzaku's father's death for which he always wanted to atone dying...
Thank you! ^___^
Dying and responsibility
Lelouch is already a bit unusual in this because he didn't die to atone but because 'it was part of the plan', at least according to my opinion. I don't think he wanted to die, I think he viewed it as necessary for the world to walk toward tomorrow. Lelouch's idea to deal with his mistakes is usually to do his best to accomplish something in return. It's in the talk he gives to Kallen in Ep 13. They've to continue so as not to waste the lives lost. His problem with continuing was he judged his dead indispensable for people to go on in the same way he judged necessary Katakase's death.
Mind you, I wish rather badly things had gone very different... and I'm totally against passing Zero's mask to Suzaku or anyone else for the matter.
I think the general idea here is that even Zero's sins were transferred on Lelouch, while I would have preferred for Zero to take his share of guilt and die as well while killing Lelouch.
While people might feel better if Lelouch is the scapegoat for everything this remove collective responsibility and won't help the world to mature at all.
If Zero for first had admitted his errors and amended for them (even killing himself and therefore administering on himself the same divine retribution he gave to others) people might have analyzed their behavior, understood their wrong doing and improved.
I think Lelouch was trying to build an utopia. There is no one without sin. Playing messiah and taking them all on himself... I don't know, it doesn't sound a great plan to me.
Re: Dying and responsibility
Re: Dying and responsibility
Character development
If he'd been a real person, psychologically speaking it would be very hard considering his background and the fact that the only time he tried to open up and explain things honestly to someone he ended up unwillingly Geassing Euphemia and ordering her the massacre of the Japanese. After that he will never try to explain himself, not even to Nunnally and even CC will have to prod him more to get answers from him. I guess one of the changes in him had been as the series progressed he became more closed on himself instead than open, reflecting CC's words that the Geass would isolate him.
Also, Lelouch's small character changes might be another thing the show use to differentiate him from Suzaku. Suzaku changes a lot during the whole series while Lelouch is, more or less, always the same, aiming for the same goal (a better world), going forward following his own plan, trying to keep distance from others, playing dirty tricks and letting people think the worst of him (in the war against China he let Xing-Ke believe he had kidnapped Tianzi and the poor man had to follow him sure he planned to harm her... in the black rebellion he let Suzaku think he was using the council members as hostages and that he wouldn't hesitate to fire at them).
So basically I don't know if he ever had the chance to mature since both reality and show business seemed to make him the way he is.
Don't worry, I wish for another ending as well. Plus I think the secondary characters had been neglected in this ending not mentioning the writers unfailingly implied Xing-Ke was a step from being killed from his illness back in early episodes of R2 and he still manages to make through this battle alive and at this point I think he'll end up outliving all the Black Knights... unless an OAV or a picture book will prove me wrong.
And sorry for rambling so much... I should really start writing my own essay on CG so I wouldn't feel compelled to ramble about it so much... -_-
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Yes. I really love that scene, and I really love how Geass in general wove the themes of lies and masks. It's beautiful stuff. Lelouch hates explaining himself, seeing it as a justification of things which are not justifiable, which is true in a way. I have a lot of respect for Suzaku for realising Lelouch was lying too!
Also there was Shneizer to consider. He had to stop him and he believed he had to do it quickly.
But Schneizel's not entirely evil either. It's hard to believe he couldn't have dealt with him another way.
And there's also the fact that, genius or not, Lelouch is 18 and with some psychological complexes of his own.
Yes, that's true as well. But from the overall narrative of things, I would have preferred for him to have an opportunity to grow up in maturity :)
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Me too. People play a lot on this game of truths and lies showing the various shades of grey things have in such a beautiful way!
I have a lot of respect for Suzaku for realising Lelouch was lying too!
I liked how Suzaku realized it as well... but somehow I felt like he wasn't capable to put that knowledge to use... I don't know how to explain it better... sure, maybe it's because they were interrupted by Shneizer... but I really wish Suzaku had taken a different path there (not sure which one...)
But Schneizel's not entirely evil either. It's hard to believe he couldn't have dealt with him another way.
Shneizer isn't enterely evil but I'm not sure he would listen. Shneizer, according to Kanon, hold no real attachment to things. His actions are according to his beliefs not to his wishes. Shneizer believes what he's doing is right, is what the world needs, what people really wants. It would take a lot of work to persuade him of the contrary and I'm not sure he would be willing to listen when all he had to do was to push a button to get things his way.
Mind you, I wish things had gone a lot differently and that Lelouch had handled things better... but I don't know if, given the situation, it was possible for things to go differently.
Yes, that's true as well. But from the overall narrative of things, I would have preferred for him to have an opportunity to grow up in maturity :)
Well, he matured a little from the start... but not enough.
I like to think this is due to an overload of experiences... to grow you've to make experiences but you need to have the time to assimilate it while Lelouch instead lived them in a rush.
Ep 1-2-3 first series (that retell a day in his life) are full of traumatic events all together. He ends involved with terrorists, he believes Suzaku death, he's chased by soldiers that want to kill him, he believes CC death, he witnesses a massacre, he gets a strange power, he causes some soldiers to suicide, lead the terrorists in a battle agaisnt the army, kills Clovis (that had caused the Shinjuku massacre) plus other minor things.
All in a day.
The events don't sit with him well, in fact he feels sick later at school when he thinks back at Clovis' death but he has no much time to deal with them.
He finds himself in a rush to save Suzaku.
Does he has time to deal with all this?
Not much because Cornelia jumps in and organizes another massacre in a ghetto he believes he could handle it and gets almost caught. CC teases him about his failure, only encouraging him to continue for a way that's not really good.
And so on.
To mature he would need to sit down and THINK at what he done... instead when he sits down and thinks at things up is only to plan for the future. Sure, he tries not to do the same mistakes but, more often than not, he tends to think if he'll make things right afterwards this will justify his mistakes.
While looking at the future is positive (I prefer this to characters who sit down and thinks solely to the mistake they've done in the past, unable to move forward) you also need to look at the past to learn.
... ops... sorry, I ended up rambling a lot... it's just that after seeing that episode I've a lot of things to ponder bottled inside... *hides in shame*