An update on the Ran's board situation

[salinea]

First,
I've been pointed out that one of my paragraph in the post I had pasted from the thread could be read as implying that I thought the death of Jews, in the Shoah, as somehow more important than the current suffering and death of the Palestinian people, when I said it was not a genocide, and as a result dismissing their plight. I wrote this line because this claim (calling what Palestinians suffer a genocide) is something I have heard a few times, and indeed, I've seen someone make this comparison in another thread at the board. However I was not my intent to dismiss the Palestinians' suffering and horrid current plight and I apologize for writing something which could be read that way. I have bow retracted (via striking it out) of my previous post.
Another person commented addressing this paragraph to say that while it was not a genocide, it was in effect ethnic cleansing. I am not educated and knowledgeable enough to address that comment with the seriousness it deserves, which I'm sorry for. But I thought you guys should be made aware at this objection to my post.

Second,
My one day suspension having ended, I sent a PM to Ran telling him that I thought I deserved an explainion

This is his answer, and my own answer to him.

I believe I did explain, precisely, why Elrostar's post wasn't removed. I also suggested that it would be good to discuss it in that thread or via PM.

If you mean your other thread, you were using to indirectly attack other boarders ("racist idiots" is obviously referring to Elrostar, at the least) and then, when I closed (but did not delete, you'll note) it because of this, you then sent a spurious report making a mendacious claim. Hence the suspension.

I'll tell you how I see what happened. You can make of that what you want. I'll be leaving the board after that.

Elrostar made one comment which follows a trend which I can't call anything but Anti-semitic. I've seen other people on this board made those kind comments, and I have seen it since. Since threads on the subject of Israel and Gaza had a history of going too heated very easily, and since I don't believe whatever comment I could make would be listened to (It's not like I don't have a history of my comments being dismissed out of hand because people see me as too Jewish biased), I chose the least wank-inducing option which was to report it.

Your answer to my report obviously showed that you had no clue why I saw this as anti-semitic. You even compared this to attacks against the United States, as if Americans had a history of being an oppressed minorities for a big part of History; or as if Americans had been the victim of Nazi genocide - not comparable in the slightest. So I tried to explain it to you.

Your answer to my explanation was something which I interpreted as : this anti-Semitism you and all Jews of the board suffer from is none of my business as an admin or as a mod. Handle it on your own.

This I found outraging and deeply upsetting.

When I wrote the new thread (a new thread because I didn't want to thread jack the other thread, and a public thread rather than PM because Elrostar is only one of the person likely to make that sorts of comment, and I don't particularly want to enter the business of sending all of these people a PM every time they say something outrageous); I was quite angry, yet I tried the best possible job at explaining why it is anti-Semitic and how comparison of Israel and Jews to Nazi has a history of being used as hate speech against Jews; and also why I think it is the responsibility of the overall community (id est: you, the mods, and other boarders) to not turn a blind eye to that kind of hate speech when it happens (Something which I believe when other kinds of offensive comments against minorities and women are done, I assure you!).

You answer to that was to 1/ close the thread 2/ delete one of my comment.
In other word, after telling me that I was on my own to defend myself and my people from anti-Semitic comments; you actually took the step of silencing me when I was trying to do just that.

You didn't bother to explain to me why you took this step. You never engaged with any of my arguments at any point. You just said it was "obvious". Well not to me.

This I found to be disgusting and hypocritical. I called you out on it via the report tool (because I like irony). That you were, in effect and whether you are aware of it or not, protecting hate speech on our board, and preventing people from calling it for what it was.

Then you suspended me, showing your utter unwillingness to consider your own ignorance and prejudices.

You now give me the flimsiest of explanation, about the deletion of that one last comment, that "racist idiots" is an attack on a boarder.
In this sentence there is one word which is, indeed, name calling and an attack

It is the word "idiot".

Calling someone a racist is no an attack. It is not name calling. It is not an insult. It is not a slur.

Insults are words and sentences expressed for the sole purpose of humiliating, aggravating, demeaning and dismissing other people.

Calling someone a racist (or calling them a sexist, a misogynistic, a homophobic, an ableist, a transphobic etc.) is a tool a way to name the oppression and aggression that discriminated people suffer from - and it's often their only tool.

It can, of course, be used incorrectly, and it can, indeed, be pretty upsetting to suffer as an accusation. But it's an important and essential tool to keep in the hands of people who suffer discriminations.

If you remove that tool from their hand, you are, in effect and whether you are aware of it or not, condoning their oppression.

Now, you might be thinking by this point that I am a Drama Queen, and that I am exaggerating and posing myself as a victim.

But newsflash for you : anti-Semitism exist. Anti-Semitism did not suddenly disappear after WW2. Anti-Semitism has been perpetrated by a wide variety of populations, not only the Germans under the Third Reich. Anti-Semitic attacks are happening right now, in Europe, where I live, and elsewhere. And I have suffered, personally from anti-Semitism, subtle and blatant. I've been called a dirty Jew.

So yeah, when I see something that I see an anti-Semitic remark, I see it as an attack against me, and against my people.

It doesn't need to be an anti-Semitic against all Jews. A remark that is racist in nature whether it targets all people of the minority or only those which are "uppity" or too loud or annoying right now to the racist person is still a racist remark.

I cannot tell you how disappointed and disgusted with you I am right now, but judging from your previous behaviour, I have little chance to receive an apology.

So good bye.

Third,
There are maybe some people reading this who are puzzled and confused about this, because the first post I made on the subject was flocked. Given that a lot of people commented there knowing it was flocked, I would rather not unlock it. So, sorry for the confusion

Fourth,
There are maybe some people, especially other boarders, who are disagreeing with me deeply about this in general. I want to tell you that I prefer a thousand time for someone to tell me fair and square that they disagree with me, than for them to be bashing me in private under a flock post. Seriously few things make me feel more betrayed.

I'm leaving the board now. I spent a lot of good times there, and I'm sorry to abandon all the people there I enjoyed discussing with, but I don't think I can enjoy myself there anymore.

And that's it for this subject.

Comments

[mashiara13.livejournal.com]

I posted in your goodbye thread but I'll add my voice here. It's sad to see you go, even though I understand how hurt you were by this whole deal. I've followed all the latest Israel-Palestine threads and I thought your posts were some of the most reasonable there, but I could see your frustration.

Maybe you'll consider coming back to the board in a while and avoid political threads, or just post in literature? Your posts were always very appreciated.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Thank you muchly for your understanding and compliment.

I might come back in the far off future (2012 is it?) or for the literature forum... or simply as a lurker. I don't know. But thank you.

[twistedsheets10.livejournal.com]

Came here via the board. Like I said on the thread, I'm sad to see you go. I hope one day you'll drop by again, if only for the Literature and Book sections.

~The Wolf Maid

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

I always appreciated your posts a great deal as well! *hugs* I think I talk more about books on LJ anyway ^^ I hope you don't mind if I friend you?

[twistedsheets10.livejournal.com]

Haha. Of course! I was about to ask you the same thing. :D

[eefster.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry you're going. I think you've contributed a lot to the discussions there, and that the board will be poorer without you.

I wasn't originally going to respond to all of this, because I didn't know what to say. I also didn't want to present some opinion as though I were bestowing it from on high, as my view of things is not The Single View of Truth, and I understand people (you, but also others) might disagree. I think that's as things should be.

However, in response to someone else's take on it this morning I finally sat down and composed this. I probably should have shared it with you first, but I wasn't originally going to say anything at all about it (other than that I'm sorry you're going). As soon as I posted there, I knew I had to post it where I knew you'd see it, too.

I also know you're going to disagree with some, if not most or all of it, but I hope it's not so fundamental a disagreement that I'll "disgust" you, as you put it previously.

To put the beginning in context, someone was talking about Elrostar's post, and how it was "despicable, and trolling of the worst kind." This is my reply to that, and to the whole sequence of events.

Bah! Turns out my comment is too long, so I will put the other post in a separate reply. Sorry for the journal-clutter!

[eefster.livejournal.com]

-------- Post from elsewhere --------

I don't think it was trolling so much as just a really really poor attempt at pointed humor. I do agree that he should have known better.

However, because I think he was trying to make a point about his perceived ostracisation and systemic persecution of Israeli Arabs by the Israeli government (however faulty his perception may be), I don't think it hits the auto-anti-Semitism bell. I think it's a horrible comparison, and patently offensive, and I think he would have done better had he just gone with his later comparison of the Israeli Department of Homeland Security. I don't think it shows (in this case) a prejudice against or hostility towards Jews, individually or collectively, or the Jewish homeland in the state of Israel.

In that sense, I agree with Ran that I don't think it deserved deletion.

However, I think Anne-Elisa had every right to be offended and to get angry. I think she was right to do so. I think she had the right to disagree with Ran's non-removal, though I personally don't. I also think she would have served herself much better by posting the calmer and more explanatory reply in the thread -- the one that she put to Ran originally, and that he suggested she post in the thread herself. (However, I understand not wanting to explain again and again why something is offensive, and getting extremely upset when you feel forced to do so. Having to calmly say "you know, your point of view is really discriminatory and pointlessly offensive, and here are all of the reasons which you won't bother listening to" is painful.)

I also think she was not calm enough when she posted her own thread -- as pointed out in her LJ, parts of it can be read as "forget how badly the Palestinians are being treated now, the Jews are too and have historical persecution on top of it!" It's not what she meant, and she took steps to correct it once it was pointed out to her, but it could completely have lead to another flamewar about the situation. Again, I'm no mod, but it seems obvious to me why Ran closed it.

Similarly, I felt uncomfortable when she put in her goodbye thread that it's because of mod decisions. Not because I don't think that's a valid reason to go, or that I think she shouldn't make her disagreement clear, but because it can -- as it has -- lead to lots of people joining in to say "yea, the mods suck!" That's unproductive too, IMO, despite valid policy disagreement.

To respond to that by saying Ran supports hate speech, even though I can understand being mad about the closure? Totally out of line. And, though I disagree with the suspension, I can completely see why perhaps trying to get her to calm down before posting again might have been a good thing. I just think suspension is totally counterproductive from that point of view. (On the other hand, if there's a precedent of others being suspended for the same sort of thing, I don't think she should be treated differently just because she's been around for so long.)

-------- End post from elsewhere --------

So, there it is. I think you were right to get mad, and be offended. I agree with the thrusts of your points, even though I don't always like the way they were expressed. I'm not going to try to say that you (or anybody else) "should do X" or "should have reacted Y", because that would be totally patronising. I'm going to stand by my comment that the whole situation was not handled particularly well on any side, but hindsight/a distant view is always a different perception than at the time / when one is involved directly.

I didn't say it to you originally because I wasn't going to say it to *anybody*. Now that I have, though, I don't want you to feel that I've talked behind your back. Read it, react, and if you want to talk to me afterwards, I'll still be here.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Thank you, I'll miss your posts on the board a lot, and I'm glad I'll still see you on LJ (although I admit I never check your twitter posts, sorry -_-;;)

I also deeply appreciate your posting the comment you made on that journal, it really means a lot to me, thanks ♥

[dalthor.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure what compliment I might add that others haven't said already but I too will miss your posts. You always seemed to be able to treat with respect, those who disagreed with your points(s) of view.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Thank you ♥

I hope this is not too rambling

[cloud-wolf.livejournal.com]

Late reaction, but I was thinking about how to say this. I totally understand why you left. It pains me when people think that all Jews are America's pets and favoured by the rich when it's so obvious that this is not the case (I'm guessing some people hate Jews because they think they all get special treatment. And also confuse the Israeli government with the Jewish people as a whole). People are never a monolithic whole and I've heard about anti semitism in Russia and France and well, wtf. And I do think that Jews=Nazi is a hurtful unhelpful remark and only destroys a discussion. There are so many other comparisons you can use which aren't so incredibly loaded.

I'm glad I don't comment in Israel/Palestina discussions. I have all the emotions (being an Iranian and feeling involved in what happens in the ME) and none of the knowledge. That just can't end well. :|

*hug* I'm glad you're still on LJ, I like to see you here :)

Not rambling at all <3

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much. For getting it and articulating it ♥

I probably shouldn't have commented in those threads; like you I have the emotions and very little of the knowledge, and I was trying to merely point out the bits of comments which I felt were too out of line, or explain the things I could explain, but it did end badly :( so you're very wise

*hugs* I like to see you there very much as well ♥

[hereward77.livejournal.com]

I, too, am sad to see you go. There aren't many people on the board who go out of their way to see the other side of the argument and you clearly have always done that, even on this sensitive subject.

I don't post on LJ much, but I hope to see you around.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Thank you very much. I always appreciated your thoughtful and researched post too! I hope to see you on LJ as well, even if only on comments.

[haremstress.livejournal.com]

I just have to say, that was a kickass "f you I'm leaving" message you gave to Ran. I don't blame you at all for leaving.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

ROFL Thank you, I appreciate that ^_^ especially since it was my first try at a "f you I'm leaving" message XD

[luzisrighthand.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry that you are not happy on the board any more. :(
I won't say goodbye as you are still right here after all. :)

(I mostly avoid reading threads which involve armed conflicts myself)

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Thank you, yeah, I'm glad I'll still see you here as well :)

(I mostly avoid reading threads which involve armed conflicts myself)
Not a bad idea! But I admit a reason I was reading the board was to see different people's input on political situation.

[rockstarwookie.livejournal.com]

I'm really sorry to see you leave the board.
Being completely unoriginal, I also agree that you were a great, reasoned voice on the board, time and again contributing insightful posts.
You'll be missed :(

In what follows, I'm not trying to attack or provoke you at all. As you said previously, it's better to directly engage with people you disagree with, if you have any respect for them. I'm simply giving you my take on what I've read, because I'm sad to see things go down this road between people I respect.
I don't think you're wrong in all this and I think you're justified in feeling angered and offended by Elrostar's comments.
I just think that it's a case of two differing perceptions and a bit of miscommunication.

I don't think Elrostar's comment was anti-Semitic.
It was definitely offensive and I don't think he should have made it, but being offensive isn't automatic grounds for deletion. Every week I see posts which are offensive, but they are let pass by all of us, not just mods.
As I see it, Elrostar's comment was an insult against the state of Israel, not the Jewish people. I've read your arguments as to why you disagree and I personally don't agree with them. That doesn't make one of us wrong.
I think people are and should be utterly free to comment on and criticise any state and their actions.
That's just my own opinion, and not really relevant to the matter at hand, but I thought I'd be upfront about it :)

Ran let Elrostar's comment pass because he didn't think it was anti-Semitic.
You don't agree, and it angered you and you have more than every right to feel that way, but I don't think it's at fair of you to expect Ran to fight your battle or present your arguments for you when he doesn't have the same perception of Elrostar's comment as you.

I think Ran made a perfectly reasonable response to you about making your case to Elrostar. Sure you can feel that you shouldn't be on your own in educating other people as to your point of view, but I don't see how it should be up to someone else who doesn't hold your point of view either to do for you.
If you don't want to be the sole proponent of your point of view, then find others who agree with you to promote it together. I know that it must be frustrating finding yourself having to do it over and over again, but from the cursory glance I had at those threads, I do not think you are alone :)
You say you felt that Ran was saying that anti-Semitism is none of his business, but I don't see that. You yourself even said in the same message that you believed that he didn't get why you saw it as anti-Semitic. These two things seem pretty mutually exclusive.

I think your thread was a perfectly reasonable topic to start and to discuss and I think it was the right forum to do what Ran had suggested, however, I think that your tone in it was a bit strong. Maybe the argument you put to Ran originally would have served you better.
But still, I don't agree that it was worthy of closure.

I don't think it was reasonable of you to report Ran's post as defending hate speech or think him a jerk to not find it funny.
But I can understand why you did it because of how hurt and angry you felt.

I'm not sure of what I think of the one-day suspension. On one hand, it's a pretty small reprimand and maybe Ran partially did it because he thought you needed to cool down a bit. I don't know, I'm speculating.
On the other hand, were that to be the case it's pretty patronising and were it not to be the case, I'm not sure that reporting Ran's post was enough to warrant a suspension on its own (even a minor one).
Though I'd have to admit, were I to be accused of protection of hate speech, I'd be pretty pissed off with the person who did it.
Wouldn't you?

Anyway, as I said, I think you're justified in feeling angered by Elrostar's post, even if I don't fully agree.
And you're justified in feeling frustrated by feeling like you have to repeatedly defend your people against bigotry.

And finally, I hope you find more peace away from the board, or that you may eventually return and contribute your awesome intellect and thought-provoking perspectives to the board in the future :)
I certainly would not say that I, as you put it, disagree with you deeply about this in general :)

part 1

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

As you said previously, it's better to directly engage with people you disagree with, if you have any respect for them.
Absolutely, thank you for your honesty.

I just think that it's a case of two differing perceptions and a bit of miscommunication.
Yes, I agree that better communication would have help this not blow up as it did.

I hope you know I don't mind people criticizing Israel. I think many things Israel does is wrong and should be criticised, and that it's got various problems within its society, and in the way it treats the Palestinians.
However I don't think people need to be able to compare Israel to the Nazi to properly criticize Israel.
Part of my argumentation about why this kind of comment is anti-Semitic is because it targets Israel especially as a Jewish state. The people who make those comments are obviously quite aware that many people who live in Israel are themselves or are the descendants of people who directly suffered from the Nazis oppression and attempt to eradicate them. They do this comment with the express purpose of reminding them of this suffering; and in a way that dismiss this suffering (because for all the things that Israel does wrong, it doesn't go as far as Nazi Germany did).
As with Aoife, I'm not sure I see the different between a comment that is offensive to Jews as a whole, and a comment that is Anti-Semitic. It's perhaps a little more subtle than references to Blood Libel, to the Protocols of the Wise of Zion, or to Jews as the murderers of Jesus ; but I see it as similarly, the kind of toxic meme that spreads in culture and showcases discrimination, fear, hatred and feelings of superiority.
However I know I'm not making a good job at explaining this. I'd need to show you some of the blatant antisemitic caricatures I've seen, and how those same Jew/Israel as Nazi fit right next to them in people's argumentations.

I think Ran made a perfectly reasonable response to you about making your case to Elrostar.
Not exactly. I think that's one of the place where there was a communication failure. If he had said - as you do here - "despite what you just said, I think it's offensive but not antisemitic as such because {his reasoning here} and thus not crossing the line of what we remove from the board, so I propose you explain your case directly to him on the thread."
I would have disagreed with him, but I probably wouldn't have been so angry at him; and we might have moved on to a constructive debate (or not >_>;;)
Ran didn't really qualify why he wasn't removing the comment. He just told me to do it myself and left me on my own to interpret why I should do that.
On a thread that was about a very touchy subject, where moderators had already had to warn people about not crossing the lines; that was not a very clever thing to do.

You yourself even said in the same message that you believed that he didn't get why you saw it as anti-Semitic.
After which I tried to explain to him why. Possibly it wasn't a good explanation.

I think your thread was a perfectly reasonable topic to start and to discuss and I think it was the right forum to do what Ran had suggested, however, I think that your tone in it was a bit strong.
Yeah it was. I was angry.

Maybe the argument you put to Ran originally would have served you better.
Obviously not since it didn't convince Ran.

I don't think it was reasonable of you to report Ran's post as defending hate speech or think him a jerk to not find it funny.
I shouldn't have called Ran a jerk, I agree.
It was probably not reasonable to report his comment, but I still feel I was quit entitled to it after the way he treated me.

edited for a couple of typos

part 2

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Though I'd have to admit, were I to be accused of protection of hate speech, I'd be pretty pissed off with the person who did it.
Wouldn't you?
Yes! I would be pissed off and upset. But I really, really hope that I would also question myself. Try to enquire directly with the person why they felt so strongly to use such an accusation. Try to educate myself to see how, however unknowingly, I might have cause offence. More than a year ago I wrote a post on the subject: Ooops, racism.
So would I react the right way if I get told that kind of thing?
I don't know. I can't know until it happens and we'll see what I do.
But what I really think is the right way to behave is definitely to stop, think, research, and probably apologise.

Anyway, thank you for your understanding of my feeling of hanger and hurt, and the compliments at the top of your comment :)

[solesakuma]

Well, your blood pressure is certainly relieved.

I'm glad you removed that part. It was jarring, even if I was sure you didn't mean it like that.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

It is!

Sorry about that part.

[dizilla.livejournal.com]

all i gotta say is *hugs*

I'm really surprised at the mod response... That was... i don't even know what to say.

I still can't believe people think the original comment wasn't anti-Semitic. Even if he hadn't intended it to be, it still is. Like what I learned in psychology, the most offensive racists are the ones who don't believe they are, who truly believe they're being fair. There was no point to that comment at all other than to be nasty and "humorous". They were trying for south park humor and failed miserably.

*sigh* Well at least you can now put it past you, and got the best of the board with people following you on LJ now. ^_^ *hugs again*

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

*hugs* Thank you so much for getting it.