An update on the Ran's board situation

[salinea]

First,
I've been pointed out that one of my paragraph in the post I had pasted from the thread could be read as implying that I thought the death of Jews, in the Shoah, as somehow more important than the current suffering and death of the Palestinian people, when I said it was not a genocide, and as a result dismissing their plight. I wrote this line because this claim (calling what Palestinians suffer a genocide) is something I have heard a few times, and indeed, I've seen someone make this comparison in another thread at the board. However I was not my intent to dismiss the Palestinians' suffering and horrid current plight and I apologize for writing something which could be read that way. I have bow retracted (via striking it out) of my previous post.
Another person commented addressing this paragraph to say that while it was not a genocide, it was in effect ethnic cleansing. I am not educated and knowledgeable enough to address that comment with the seriousness it deserves, which I'm sorry for. But I thought you guys should be made aware at this objection to my post.

Second,
My one day suspension having ended, I sent a PM to Ran telling him that I thought I deserved an explainion

This is his answer, and my own answer to him.

I believe I did explain, precisely, why Elrostar's post wasn't removed. I also suggested that it would be good to discuss it in that thread or via PM.

If you mean your other thread, you were using to indirectly attack other boarders ("racist idiots" is obviously referring to Elrostar, at the least) and then, when I closed (but did not delete, you'll note) it because of this, you then sent a spurious report making a mendacious claim. Hence the suspension.

I'll tell you how I see what happened. You can make of that what you want. I'll be leaving the board after that.

Elrostar made one comment which follows a trend which I can't call anything but Anti-semitic. I've seen other people on this board made those kind comments, and I have seen it since. Since threads on the subject of Israel and Gaza had a history of going too heated very easily, and since I don't believe whatever comment I could make would be listened to (It's not like I don't have a history of my comments being dismissed out of hand because people see me as too Jewish biased), I chose the least wank-inducing option which was to report it.

Your answer to my report obviously showed that you had no clue why I saw this as anti-semitic. You even compared this to attacks against the United States, as if Americans had a history of being an oppressed minorities for a big part of History; or as if Americans had been the victim of Nazi genocide - not comparable in the slightest. So I tried to explain it to you.

Your answer to my explanation was something which I interpreted as : this anti-Semitism you and all Jews of the board suffer from is none of my business as an admin or as a mod. Handle it on your own.

This I found outraging and deeply upsetting.

When I wrote the new thread (a new thread because I didn't want to thread jack the other thread, and a public thread rather than PM because Elrostar is only one of the person likely to make that sorts of comment, and I don't particularly want to enter the business of sending all of these people a PM every time they say something outrageous); I was quite angry, yet I tried the best possible job at explaining why it is anti-Semitic and how comparison of Israel and Jews to Nazi has a history of being used as hate speech against Jews; and also why I think it is the responsibility of the overall community (id est: you, the mods, and other boarders) to not turn a blind eye to that kind of hate speech when it happens (Something which I believe when other kinds of offensive comments against minorities and women are done, I assure you!).

You answer to that was to 1/ close the thread 2/ delete one of my comment.
In other word, after telling me that I was on my own to defend myself and my people from anti-Semitic comments; you actually took the step of silencing me when I was trying to do just that.

You didn't bother to explain to me why you took this step. You never engaged with any of my arguments at any point. You just said it was "obvious". Well not to me.

This I found to be disgusting and hypocritical. I called you out on it via the report tool (because I like irony). That you were, in effect and whether you are aware of it or not, protecting hate speech on our board, and preventing people from calling it for what it was.

Then you suspended me, showing your utter unwillingness to consider your own ignorance and prejudices.

You now give me the flimsiest of explanation, about the deletion of that one last comment, that "racist idiots" is an attack on a boarder.
In this sentence there is one word which is, indeed, name calling and an attack

It is the word "idiot".

Calling someone a racist is no an attack. It is not name calling. It is not an insult. It is not a slur.

Insults are words and sentences expressed for the sole purpose of humiliating, aggravating, demeaning and dismissing other people.

Calling someone a racist (or calling them a sexist, a misogynistic, a homophobic, an ableist, a transphobic etc.) is a tool a way to name the oppression and aggression that discriminated people suffer from - and it's often their only tool.

It can, of course, be used incorrectly, and it can, indeed, be pretty upsetting to suffer as an accusation. But it's an important and essential tool to keep in the hands of people who suffer discriminations.

If you remove that tool from their hand, you are, in effect and whether you are aware of it or not, condoning their oppression.

Now, you might be thinking by this point that I am a Drama Queen, and that I am exaggerating and posing myself as a victim.

But newsflash for you : anti-Semitism exist. Anti-Semitism did not suddenly disappear after WW2. Anti-Semitism has been perpetrated by a wide variety of populations, not only the Germans under the Third Reich. Anti-Semitic attacks are happening right now, in Europe, where I live, and elsewhere. And I have suffered, personally from anti-Semitism, subtle and blatant. I've been called a dirty Jew.

So yeah, when I see something that I see an anti-Semitic remark, I see it as an attack against me, and against my people.

It doesn't need to be an anti-Semitic against all Jews. A remark that is racist in nature whether it targets all people of the minority or only those which are "uppity" or too loud or annoying right now to the racist person is still a racist remark.

I cannot tell you how disappointed and disgusted with you I am right now, but judging from your previous behaviour, I have little chance to receive an apology.

So good bye.

Third,
There are maybe some people reading this who are puzzled and confused about this, because the first post I made on the subject was flocked. Given that a lot of people commented there knowing it was flocked, I would rather not unlock it. So, sorry for the confusion

Fourth,
There are maybe some people, especially other boarders, who are disagreeing with me deeply about this in general. I want to tell you that I prefer a thousand time for someone to tell me fair and square that they disagree with me, than for them to be bashing me in private under a flock post. Seriously few things make me feel more betrayed.

I'm leaving the board now. I spent a lot of good times there, and I'm sorry to abandon all the people there I enjoyed discussing with, but I don't think I can enjoy myself there anymore.

And that's it for this subject.

Comments

[eefster.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry you're going. I think you've contributed a lot to the discussions there, and that the board will be poorer without you.

I wasn't originally going to respond to all of this, because I didn't know what to say. I also didn't want to present some opinion as though I were bestowing it from on high, as my view of things is not The Single View of Truth, and I understand people (you, but also others) might disagree. I think that's as things should be.

However, in response to someone else's take on it this morning I finally sat down and composed this. I probably should have shared it with you first, but I wasn't originally going to say anything at all about it (other than that I'm sorry you're going). As soon as I posted there, I knew I had to post it where I knew you'd see it, too.

I also know you're going to disagree with some, if not most or all of it, but I hope it's not so fundamental a disagreement that I'll "disgust" you, as you put it previously.

To put the beginning in context, someone was talking about Elrostar's post, and how it was "despicable, and trolling of the worst kind." This is my reply to that, and to the whole sequence of events.

Bah! Turns out my comment is too long, so I will put the other post in a separate reply. Sorry for the journal-clutter!

[eefster.livejournal.com]

-------- Post from elsewhere --------

I don't think it was trolling so much as just a really really poor attempt at pointed humor. I do agree that he should have known better.

However, because I think he was trying to make a point about his perceived ostracisation and systemic persecution of Israeli Arabs by the Israeli government (however faulty his perception may be), I don't think it hits the auto-anti-Semitism bell. I think it's a horrible comparison, and patently offensive, and I think he would have done better had he just gone with his later comparison of the Israeli Department of Homeland Security. I don't think it shows (in this case) a prejudice against or hostility towards Jews, individually or collectively, or the Jewish homeland in the state of Israel.

In that sense, I agree with Ran that I don't think it deserved deletion.

However, I think Anne-Elisa had every right to be offended and to get angry. I think she was right to do so. I think she had the right to disagree with Ran's non-removal, though I personally don't. I also think she would have served herself much better by posting the calmer and more explanatory reply in the thread -- the one that she put to Ran originally, and that he suggested she post in the thread herself. (However, I understand not wanting to explain again and again why something is offensive, and getting extremely upset when you feel forced to do so. Having to calmly say "you know, your point of view is really discriminatory and pointlessly offensive, and here are all of the reasons which you won't bother listening to" is painful.)

I also think she was not calm enough when she posted her own thread -- as pointed out in her LJ, parts of it can be read as "forget how badly the Palestinians are being treated now, the Jews are too and have historical persecution on top of it!" It's not what she meant, and she took steps to correct it once it was pointed out to her, but it could completely have lead to another flamewar about the situation. Again, I'm no mod, but it seems obvious to me why Ran closed it.

Similarly, I felt uncomfortable when she put in her goodbye thread that it's because of mod decisions. Not because I don't think that's a valid reason to go, or that I think she shouldn't make her disagreement clear, but because it can -- as it has -- lead to lots of people joining in to say "yea, the mods suck!" That's unproductive too, IMO, despite valid policy disagreement.

To respond to that by saying Ran supports hate speech, even though I can understand being mad about the closure? Totally out of line. And, though I disagree with the suspension, I can completely see why perhaps trying to get her to calm down before posting again might have been a good thing. I just think suspension is totally counterproductive from that point of view. (On the other hand, if there's a precedent of others being suspended for the same sort of thing, I don't think she should be treated differently just because she's been around for so long.)

-------- End post from elsewhere --------

So, there it is. I think you were right to get mad, and be offended. I agree with the thrusts of your points, even though I don't always like the way they were expressed. I'm not going to try to say that you (or anybody else) "should do X" or "should have reacted Y", because that would be totally patronising. I'm going to stand by my comment that the whole situation was not handled particularly well on any side, but hindsight/a distant view is always a different perception than at the time / when one is involved directly.

I didn't say it to you originally because I wasn't going to say it to *anybody*. Now that I have, though, I don't want you to feel that I've talked behind your back. Read it, react, and if you want to talk to me afterwards, I'll still be here.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

I don't think it was trolling so much as just a really really poor attempt at pointed humor.
Isn't that what most trolling is?

However, because I think he was trying to make a point about his perceived ostracisation and systemic persecution of Israeli Arabs by the Israeli government (however faulty his perception may be)
That's very probably true.

I don't think it hits the auto-anti-Semitism bell. I think it's a horrible comparison, and patently offensive, and I think he would have done better had he just gone with his later comparison of the Israeli Department of Homeland Security.
I think I understand what you say here, but at the same time I'm not quite sure I understand the difference between patently offensive and anti-semitic. This is probably an English language skill fault of mine.
I still think that in this context the comment is anti-semitic, not necessarly because erostar meant it as anti-semitic, but because the meme of making this comparison is one that is Anti-Jewish in nature. I think, on that same post, Dub did the best job of getting why and trying to explain... there rubbing it in for the express purpose of being aggravating, knowing that the people in question come from a history where they were oppressed in this specific way. I'm sorry, I don't make a very good job of explaining this, I'm afraid, and I don't know if I can...

I also think she was not calm enough when she posted her own thread
You're absolutely correct. I was beyond myself with anger and crying at this point. I didn't want to make that post yet because I was so angry, I felt that I had to make that post.

Similarly, I felt uncomfortable when she put in her goodbye thread that it's because of mod decisions. Not because I don't think that's a valid reason to go, or that I think she shouldn't make her disagreement clear, but because it can -- as it has -- lead to lots of people joining in to say "yea, the mods suck!" That's unproductive too, IMO, despite valid policy disagreement.
I said "moderation policy" to be precise. I hesitated about how to handle this, because I didn't want to be too wanky, yet I admit a part of me definitely desired to see people back me up. In any case I though I had to at least address the matter in some way, but I also said I wanted the post to be about positive stuff, not complaining.
I don't think the mods suck (a few of them are on my flist for a reason!); but I do think the moderation policies are quite lacking, even beyond that issue I had with Ran personally, in what it lacks in transparency, clarity, systematic-ness, and explanations. In my previous thread I was comparing it to the moderation on RPG.net, another large board about geek topics and aside conversations, where the mods have a specific subforum where they explain all their policies, always explain why to the public when they delete a post etc. In some way, I regret not having criticised those policies before, when their target didn't touch me so personally.

To respond to that by saying Ran supports hate speech, even though I can understand being mad about the closure? Totally out of line.
I'm afraid I have to stand by that comment. I know accusations that touch to racism are deeply infuriating and upsetting to receive, but I still think they're necessary. Lots of people are good, well intentioned people, yet most people do have brain farts and express the structural racism of our society which they breath in at some point or another. I have, as you noted, had one such brainfart in that thread I made at Ran's board.
Of course I could have express this much better and less aggressive way than I did at that point...

By the way, I think you're totally correct, latter on that same post, to say I was out of line to call Ran a jerk for not finding it funny, and I would apologize for it to him, if 1/ my insult hadn't been done on a flocked post Ran wasn't supposed to have seen 2/ I didn't think it would be a grave mistake for me to make a comment on that post. -_-;

Anyway, overall, I thank you for the great sensitivity you express in that post and will to understand where people came from. I'm finding myself admirative of that (and of your ability to express it).

Part 1.

[eefster.livejournal.com]

Isn't that what most trolling is?
Well, as I said in my original reply, I think that Elrostar was trying to make an actual point. That differentiates it (for me) from trolling, which is posting provocatively for the sake of getting a reaction, rather than just a horribly inappropriate attempt at making an analogy. I have no doubt that he was trying to be shocking, but I don't think he was *trying* to be offensive. He was anyway.


I think I understand what you say here, but at the same time I'm not quite sure I understand the difference between patently offensive and anti-semitic. This is probably an English language skill fault of mine.
Hm. In this case, I mean that it was clearly and unambiguously offensive. I think most comparisons to Nazis are, and even those that are trying to make points get lost in the automatic shutdown of response. Basically, that calling anybody a Nazi without a damn precise reason to do so (and sometimes even with one) is offensive. It doesn't have to be against Jews, or Israel, to be offensive.

I still think that in this context the comment is anti-semitic, not necessarly because erostar meant it as anti-semitic, but because the meme of making this comparison is one that is Anti-Jewish in nature. I think, on that same post, Dub did the best job of getting why and trying to explain... there rubbing it in for the express purpose of being aggravating, knowing that the people in question come from a history where they were oppressed in this specific way. I'm sorry, I don't make a very good job of explaining this, I'm afraid, and I don't know if I can...
No, I think I understand what you're saying. Well, intellectually. I don't know if anybody can understand it who has not experienced it firsthand. I know some of my grandmother's stories, of what happened to her in the US, and what happened to her brother in Belgium, but it's just never the same. (And they weren't even Jewish, their father was.)

Regardless, here's my thought. I know you disagree, and I completely understand your reasons for doing so. I also agree that to make this comparison about Israel is even more offensive than to make that comparison to anybody else. However, criticising Israel's policy is not the same thing as criticising "the Jews". Also, I imagine that -- at least in situations like this, and now I'm talking about any situation, not just this one -- the idea is deliberately to point out that this horrible thing was done to the very people who are now perpetrating it. If this board were around when the Irish started being accepted in the US, when the majority groups were 'allowing' the Irish to be "white", and they all started discriminating against blacks and those of swarthier complexions... well, I imagine that there would be posts about how Irish business owners could just start putting up "No blacks need apply" signs. The very discrimination used against them, now used by them.

Still, I really do see your point. I also think that that comparison's all too often used as a "disguise" for genuine antisemitism. Between that and the inherent Nazi-offensive equivalence, I think Elrostar totally deserved to be slapped down for his post. I just don't think it was antisemitic.

You're absolutely correct. I was beyond myself with anger and crying at this point. I didn't want to make that post yet because I was so angry, I felt that I had to make that post.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I do that all of the time. :p I'm just learning more and more that the more something gets me worked up, the more thought I have to put into how I reply. Even if I react immediately with something like "I think that's totally offensive, and I'm really angry right now," I have to go away for a little bit and write *why* I'm so angry to post later. Whether I write it then or later, I always re-read later and then post. I don't want to put someone immediately on the defensive, as it means they won't listen to my actual points.
But, as I imply above, that's more often would I *should* do than what I *do* do. :p

Part 2. I definitely write too much.

[eefster.livejournal.com]

I said "moderation policy" to be precise. I hesitated about how to handle this, because I didn't want to be too wanky, yet I admit a part of me definitely desired to see people back me up. In any case I though I had to at least address the matter in some way, but I also said I wanted the post to be about positive stuff, not complaining.
I don't think the mods suck (a few of them are on my flist for a reason!); but I do think the moderation policies are quite lacking, even beyond that issue I had with Ran personally, in what it lacks in transparency, clarity, systematic-ness, and explanations. In my previous thread I was comparing it to the moderation on RPG.net, another large board about geek topics and aside conversations, where the mods have a specific subforum where they explain all their policies, always explain why to the public when they delete a post etc. In some way, I regret not having criticised those policies before, when their target didn't touch me so personally.
Sorry, you did. I didn't mean to imply that I thought you were calling out the mods themselves; I knew that wasn't the case. You made the separation between the policies and the people, but others in your thread didn't, and that's all I was trying to point out. Although it's been reasonably okay so far, it just seemed a bit like it could spiral into a pile-on.

I'm afraid I have to stand by that comment. I know accusations that touch to racism are deeply infuriating and upsetting to receive, but I still think they're necessary. Lots of people are good, well intentioned people, yet most people do have brain farts and express the structural racism of our society which they breath in at some point or another. I have, as you noted, had one such brainfart in that thread I made at Ran's board.
Of course I could have express this much better and less aggressive way than I did at that point...
See, and this is going back to my thoughts on Elrostar's post not being antisemitic. Because I don't think it was hate speech, as offensive as it was, I don't think Ran was/is supporting hate speech. I understand about well-intentioned people perpetuating racism (or sexism, or ageism, or xenophobia, or...), and maybe I'm coming across as one. Or maybe I am one. I just still don't think it was a fair comment.

By the way, I think you're totally correct, latter on that same post, to say I was out of line to call Ran a jerk for not finding it funny, and I would apologize for it to him, if 1/ my insult hadn't been done on a flocked post Ran wasn't supposed to have seen 2/ I didn't think it would be a grave mistake for me to make a comment on that post. -_-;
1. Fuck. You're totally right, and I'm sorry. I obviously wasn't thinking, or I wouldn't have cross-posted that part.
2. Probably a very self-preservatory idea. ;)

Anyway, overall, I thank you for the great sensitivity you express in that post and will to understand where people came from. I'm finding myself admirative of that (and of your ability to express it).
Not much of an ability, the amount I have to keep explaining myself, or how badly I put it the first time! But thank you. I think the same of you, especially when I know what a sensitive issue this is.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Thank you, I'll miss your posts on the board a lot, and I'm glad I'll still see you on LJ (although I admit I never check your twitter posts, sorry -_-;;)

I also deeply appreciate your posting the comment you made on that journal, it really means a lot to me, thanks ♥

[eefster.livejournal.com]

No problem about the twitter posts! The whole reason I put them behind a cut is that I know they seem important at the time, but they really aren't at all.

Mind you, that covers most of my posts as a whole, but I'll keep inflicting those on you all. ;)