salinea | fandom and secret santa

It's very bad that people who complain about the overbearing nature of Christmas are told to suck it up, or that they're whiners. Christians, especially here probably, tend to assume everyone is Christian. Our presidential candidates say that the US was established as a Christian nation and all our Founding Fathers were Christian, which is a lie.

I do think that Christians should be able to celebrate their holiday however they want. Blanket the county with pictures of Santa Claus (an advertising gimmick created by Coca-Cola) and Rudolph the Red-Nosed Raindeer (ditto, created by a department store). Fire up the Yule log and put up a Christmas tree (both pagan, as noted in the post you refer to). Go to Church on Dec. 25, despite the fact the Bible has him born in spring (when the sheep give birth) Thanks to Christians, Christmas hasn't been Christian in a very long time.

Sometimes it's the Christians, sometimes it's the fans of the secular and commercial X-ians. Both are perfectly able of being blind to their priviledge. I don't care how they feast christians and however religious it is. I think religions change with time and it's great that people re-appropriate them and there's always an amount of syncretism there... none of my business except if I'd want to study it ^^

I just wish I wouldn't feel like a freak for not practicing christmas, and that I wouldn't feel forced to participate is something with a big neon "CHRISTMAS" on its entrance just so as to participate in a cool fandom thing.

I do celebrate Chritmas even though I'm an atheist. It's odd, but I tend to be glad about the few holidays I don't celebrate. No running around and shopping and worrying, just relaxing while everyone else runs around. But that is for minor holidays, not something as massive and all-invasive as Christmas.

The one thing that bothers me a great deal is that I feel it's dangerous to say anthing about my views. The bias against atheists and the anger and hatred against us in some corners of society scares me. It would just be so easy for us all to be wiped out if the country takes an even darker turn. It's not like such things haven't happened before!

Holidays can definitly be stressful.

I'm sorry you feel like. I feel atheist should definitly have just as much right to their beliefs as anyone else. It's scary that it can not be the case in the US :(

I originally had a huge comment defending us religious people and that just like most people, say it's a freaking commercial holiday (in america and japan at least) that it really doesn't matter anyways. but i decided not to. ^^ But I definitely agree with the above comment.

*runs off to try and finish fics for october/november fests*

I'm always willing to defend religion! This isn't about commercial christmas vs religious christmas. It's about all the people who do christmas regardless of how vs those who don't, and the place of christmas in big fandom events, and people's reaction to complaints about that being way too hostile.

I admit that I don't understand this. Is she/he saying that Christmas fic exchanges are oppressive because they are named/occur during Christmas?
*puzzled*

I didn't provide most of the context :
It started with a post made by

mamadeb here, which might have been a bit clumsy but recolted some extremely hostile answers. Then the whole exchange appeared on fandom wank where there were more hostile answers. Then it sort of exploded with many posts appearing on

metafandom,

chopchica made a round up of some of them.
I think the only thing that Chopchica is saying is oppressive is that when one mentions being uncomfortable about the Sesa's christmas trapping, people have reacted with a level of hostility which really stinks.

I guess what I feel annoyed with, and some others too, is that we feel forced to participe with some which bears the whole Christmas regalia even though I don't myself practice Christmas because it's the big event of fandom, and people feel that Christmas is something universal and people like me should just suck it up even though we feel a bit uncomfortable by that.
At this period of the year, in Western Europe and in the US and probably elsewhere too, Christmas is EVERYWHERE, and it does end up feeling a bit oppressive in the sense of making someone uncomfortable. I admit I wish fandom at least would be a place where I could get a rest from it. Being utopic, I wish exchanges organizers would aknowledge that it makes some people left out, and that they sympathize, but that it still the best solution to gather the most people and cheering them. Key thing is, don't tell us to suck it up.

Ah, a small thing that blew way out of proportion. Typical fandom behavior. Though I think mamadeb's comment is a little weird. As someone in her lj pointed out non-Jewish people probably have no idea of the times of Jewish customs/holidays, it's not intentional or anything.

I guess what I feel annoyed with, and some others too, is that we feel forced to participe with some which bears the whole Christmas regalia even though I don't myself practice Christmas because it's the big event of fandom, and people feel that Christmas is something universal and people like me should just suck it up even though we feel a bit uncomfortable by that.

*nods*
I understand completely. Being non-Western and non-Christian, I just watch the fandoms kick into high gear with an amused expression. The only thing I do is offer fics for some friends.

Perhaps I'm playing devil's advocate here but I'm imagining what would happen if one had to accomodate every minority in fandom (bearing in mind that I belong to several minorities myself). Can you imagine what would happen if someone suggested no posting slash fics or porn for the entire 30 days of Ramadan? XD

Sorry^_^ I have a laid-back attitude to things so I can't muster the proper anger/annoyance for this latest issue. It just seems so childish and with every one adding their own opinion, it gets waaay off its original point.

Though I think mamadeb's comment is a little weird.
I think it was a bit clumsy, and I think that's why chopchica pointed out she didn't agree with it as such. It also makes more sense seen as one little more stroke in a long line of being uncomfortable.

As someone in her lj pointed out non-Jewish people probably have no idea of the times of Jewish customs/holidays, it's not intentional or anything.
Yes, of course. But in a way the fact that people don't know is telling in itself. That's why some people have called it "priviledge". Christians and secular from christian background people have the priviledge not to have to know Jewish or Muslim or others holliday. None of us folks have the priviledge to not know when the Christian holidays are.

Perhaps I'm playing devil's advocate here but I'm imagining what would happen if one had to accomodate every minority in fandom
And, yes, it's utopic to expect for them to know nonetheless, that's why I said that we only wanted them to aknowledge and feel sympathetic for us, in some cases maybe make accomodation (like the giving nomination for Yuletide which was a very short week and was during some of the most important Jewish holidays), just don't tell us to suck it up. Some of the reactions were disturbingly hostile, that's why people are being outraged.

You don't have to feel angry or annoyed yourself by it. But calling it "childish" is a bit patronizing.

That's why some people have called it "priviledge". Christians and secular from christian background people have the priviledge not to have to know Jewish or Muslim or others holliday. None of us folks have the priviledge to not know when the Christian holidays are.

It's the privilige of the majority to be sure. All you can do is spread the knowledge around your immediate circle and hope it takes root. Speaking for myself, I don't expect anyone to know of mine as that way lies disappointment.

just don't tell us to suck it up. Some of the reactions were disturbingly hostile, that's why people are being outraged.

I agree, definitely.

You don't have to feel angry or annoyed yourself by it. But calling it "childish" is a bit patronizing.

I apologise as that wasn't my intention. Perhaps it has to do with my background. Daily newspapers here vilify every act by the Jewish and US government into monstrous proportions over every policy and action, and the Fundamentalists respond by exaggerated Islamic slogans and death threats. So it takes a bit more than a displeasure over a fanfic signing event for me to take it seriously. Viewed against a backdrop of political turmoil and instability in the Middle East and the very real racism against all above-mentioned parties here, this thing about fanfiction seems childish to me.

Let me repeat that I don't think the concern in this latest metafandom issue is childish, but the reason it all began? *shrugs*

All you can do is spread the knowledge around your immediate circle and hope it takes root.
Yes.

Speaking for myself, I don't expect anyone to know of mine as that way lies disappointment.
Me, either. That doesn't mean I don't want to keep trying or that I'll stop being annoyed at it when it really clashes with my schedule (like when I had an exam during Yom Kippour).

I apologise as that wasn't my intention.
Thank you.

Daily newspapers here vilify every act by the Jewish and US government into monstrous proportions over every policy and action, and the Fundamentalists respond by exaggerated Islamic slogans and death threats. So it takes a bit more than a displeasure over a fanfic signing event for me to take it seriously. Viewed against a backdrop of political turmoil and instability in the Middle East and the very real racism against all above-mentioned parties here, this thing about fanfiction seems childish to me.
You're right that there's a lot of more horrible things happening in the world related to this, and that it seems a very minor point of complains in comparison. However I think it's still worthwhile to make. I mean, I can't do much about the amount of vilification of the Jews and of the US made in Arab media, you know. But fandom is my home. It's a place where I can talk and, hopefully, be heard. It might not be much, but it's something I may influence, by speaking my displeasure of it and supporting the people who do.

It certainly happened from a tiny issue. But sometimes that's just a pretext to address bigger ones.

It certainly happened from a tiny issue. But sometimes that's just a pretext to address bigger ones.

That's the disturbing part. How easily such a small thing reveals the gaping divide in society.

Hi, somebody linked me over here, and I thought I'd try to clarify a bit of what I was saying and trying to do.

As somebody who lived in Israel for years after high school, and has faced real life antisemitism throughout my entire life, I of course, find antisemitism in fandom to be on a much smaller scale.

However, fandom is a community I consciously chose to join, and seeing ugliness in a place that was supposed to be a welcoming and safe space, is extremely disturbing. In the last two days alone, a close friend has been called a kike, and I was the recipient of an antisemitic lecture in another friend's journal. There have been dozens of comments coming out of this from people I'd previously respected and liked. It was like turning over a rock and finding rotting maggots underneath.

So yes, in that context, it may seem "childish" and amusing, but when you are faced with antisemitism staring you in the face, it *hurts*. No matter *what* the context.

I found deb's post to be silly. Very, very, very silly. And I found the idea that everybody in the world should magically know all about every religion and their holidays to be even sillier. Deb's post is not what my post was about (my five posts by now, cause this grew and grew).

I posted about two main points. The first was that I found it incredibly disturbing that Deb's post opened the gateway to numerous hostile comments, which weren't mocking her for being silly, they were mocking her for being *Jewish*.

The other point I posted about was not that I find Christmas exchanges to be oppressive. I actually find them to be quite lovely, because they fill many people with joy and happiness and I get to read lots of stories. However, I do find them to be *based on Christmas*, being that they have titles from Christmas songs, use the word Santa, and go live on Christmas. And I think there's nothing wrong or oppressive or antisemitic with any of that at all. Not even a little bit. My issue is with the fact that when most people try to point out that of *course* the exchanges are Christmas-based, the reaction tends to be complete denial at best, and outright hostility at worse.

I hope that helped clarify things a bit, and I'd be happy to discuss this more, if you're interested or still have questions. If this was a bit rambly, I apologize. It's 3:30 in the morning here and I've answered literally over 100 comments today.

Thank you for this. All of this.

I think I'm closest to agreeing with "miyatawi"'s post on this since that's pretty much how Christmas is celebrated where I live.

I read a bit into the posts that seemed to have started these discussions. And I think the biggest wankers are those who posted the entry in fandom_wank. (I did not read the discussion there, because 1128 replies is a bit too much). The original poster just made an observation, it was not even very confrontative. The last comments in

metafandom, including the one you are referring to, were interesting.

I think every one has every right to raise awareness about any sort of privilege, without getting insulted. But that's the point with privilege those who benefit from it don't always see it.

P.S.: J'ai uns question personelle. J'éspère que tu ne la trouves pas trop indiscret. As-tu visité Paris en mars 2000 et logé dans un Youth Hostel près du Gare-de-Lion?

You may not be wrong, although besides Fandom_Wank, there's also been some of the answers to

mamadeb in the first place which were more agressive than it warranted. And the anon insults done that

chopchica is mentionning.

I think every one has every right to raise awareness about any sort of privilege, without getting insulted. But that's the point with privilege those who benefit from it don't always see it.
Yes! That's pretty much exactly it!

Je vis à Paris, en 2000 je vivais dans la banlieue parisienne, donc j'étais dans le coin, mais pas à l'hotel. Pourquoi ?

Je vis à Paris, en 2000 je vivais dans la banlieue parisienne, donc j'étais dans le coin, mais pas à l'hotel. Pourquoi ?

Mm. Maintenant, je suis un peu embarassée. (:blush-icon:) Quand j'étais à Paris, cet année, à l'hotel, je met un fille qui étais française et juive. En plus, elle aimais discuté beaucoup. ;) Mais, je pense que les possibilités de mettre à l'internet quelqu'un qu'on a met avant sont trés limitées. ^_^

hihi, oui effectivement.

Ya bcp de filles françaises, juives et qui aiment discuter, je pense.

French is so beautiful!

I like the Ursula av.

Thank you! It's been made by

iconsbycurtana like the pretty ASOIAF icons I use.

Wow, that's quite a debate. I only have one response:

Therefore, Yuletide = nondenominational. It does refer to the traditions of the Northern Europeans, and it does have pagan and Christian connotations, but it's made relatively generic by virtue of its being used generally to mean midwinter.

Okay, on my side of the planet it's mid-summer at Christmas (mid-winter = July). Therefore, in Netspeak - "inclusiveness: you're doing it wrong".

so much failure ^_^

Ha! Yes, I mentioned that somewhere in my post, and actually, I had a question.

I know that the seasons are opposite in your hemisphere, but do you guys do solstice as well (a solstice for days getting longer, of course, but still a solstice)? Because that's literally the only thing I can think of that might be something that the entire world would observe.

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