fandom and secret santa
13 Oct 2007 12:17 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
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chopchica said here : one big word to it. (also some very brillant things in the comment).
Christmas isn't universal. Making it into X-mas or whatever kind of pseudo-OEcumenist version doesn't make it universal.
It just makes it more oppressive.
At least when it's Christmas the very Christian religion I don't feel excluded as a human being for not practicing it. It's just the different traditions that different religions have.
Secret Santa are a great idea. I had a lot of fun participating in the Snupin Santa last year, and it brightened my month of December considerably. But fandom is always thriving to be all inclusive and pretty tolerant. So don't people be surprised if sometimes people feel grouchy about that.
chopchica said here : one big word to it. (also some very brillant things in the comment).Christmas isn't universal. Making it into X-mas or whatever kind of pseudo-OEcumenist version doesn't make it universal.
It just makes it more oppressive.
At least when it's Christmas the very Christian religion I don't feel excluded as a human being for not practicing it. It's just the different traditions that different religions have.
Secret Santa are a great idea. I had a lot of fun participating in the Snupin Santa last year, and it brightened my month of December considerably. But fandom is always thriving to be all inclusive and pretty tolerant. So don't people be surprised if sometimes people feel grouchy about that.
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Date: 13 October 2007 07:09 am (UTC)*puzzled*
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Date: 13 October 2007 11:15 am (UTC)It started with a post made by
I think the only thing that Chopchica is saying is oppressive is that when one mentions being uncomfortable about the Sesa's christmas trapping, people have reacted with a level of hostility which really stinks.
I guess what I feel annoyed with, and some others too, is that we feel forced to participe with some which bears the whole Christmas regalia even though I don't myself practice Christmas because it's the big event of fandom, and people feel that Christmas is something universal and people like me should just suck it up even though we feel a bit uncomfortable by that.
At this period of the year, in Western Europe and in the US and probably elsewhere too, Christmas is EVERYWHERE, and it does end up feeling a bit oppressive in the sense of making someone uncomfortable. I admit I wish fandom at least would be a place where I could get a rest from it. Being utopic, I wish exchanges organizers would aknowledge that it makes some people left out, and that they sympathize, but that it still the best solution to gather the most people and cheering them. Key thing is, don't tell us to suck it up.
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Date: 13 October 2007 12:21 pm (UTC)I guess what I feel annoyed with, and some others too, is that we feel forced to participe with some which bears the whole Christmas regalia even though I don't myself practice Christmas because it's the big event of fandom, and people feel that Christmas is something universal and people like me should just suck it up even though we feel a bit uncomfortable by that.
*nods*
I understand completely. Being non-Western and non-Christian, I just watch the fandoms kick into high gear with an amused expression. The only thing I do is offer fics for some friends.
Perhaps I'm playing devil's advocate here but I'm imagining what would happen if one had to accomodate every minority in fandom (bearing in mind that I belong to several minorities myself). Can you imagine what would happen if someone suggested no posting slash fics or porn for the entire 30 days of Ramadan? XD
Sorry^_^ I have a laid-back attitude to things so I can't muster the proper anger/annoyance for this latest issue. It just seems so childish and with every one adding their own opinion, it gets waaay off its original point.
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Date: 13 October 2007 01:21 pm (UTC)I think it was a bit clumsy, and I think that's why chopchica pointed out she didn't agree with it as such. It also makes more sense seen as one little more stroke in a long line of being uncomfortable.
As someone in her lj pointed out non-Jewish people probably have no idea of the times of Jewish customs/holidays, it's not intentional or anything.
Yes, of course. But in a way the fact that people don't know is telling in itself. That's why some people have called it "priviledge". Christians and secular from christian background people have the priviledge not to have to know Jewish or Muslim or others holliday. None of us folks have the priviledge to not know when the Christian holidays are.
Perhaps I'm playing devil's advocate here but I'm imagining what would happen if one had to accomodate every minority in fandom
And, yes, it's utopic to expect for them to know nonetheless, that's why I said that we only wanted them to aknowledge and feel sympathetic for us, in some cases maybe make accomodation (like the giving nomination for Yuletide which was a very short week and was during some of the most important Jewish holidays), just don't tell us to suck it up. Some of the reactions were disturbingly hostile, that's why people are being outraged.
You don't have to feel angry or annoyed yourself by it. But calling it "childish" is a bit patronizing.
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Date: 13 October 2007 01:38 pm (UTC)It's the privilige of the majority to be sure. All you can do is spread the knowledge around your immediate circle and hope it takes root. Speaking for myself, I don't expect anyone to know of mine as that way lies disappointment.
just don't tell us to suck it up. Some of the reactions were disturbingly hostile, that's why people are being outraged.
I agree, definitely.
You don't have to feel angry or annoyed yourself by it. But calling it "childish" is a bit patronizing.
I apologise as that wasn't my intention. Perhaps it has to do with my background. Daily newspapers here vilify every act by the Jewish and US government into monstrous proportions over every policy and action, and the Fundamentalists respond by exaggerated Islamic slogans and death threats. So it takes a bit more than a displeasure over a fanfic signing event for me to take it seriously. Viewed against a backdrop of political turmoil and instability in the Middle East and the very real racism against all above-mentioned parties here, this thing about fanfiction seems childish to me.
Let me repeat that I don't think the concern in this latest metafandom issue is childish, but the reason it all began? *shrugs*
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Date: 14 October 2007 08:45 pm (UTC)Yes.
Speaking for myself, I don't expect anyone to know of mine as that way lies disappointment.
Me, either. That doesn't mean I don't want to keep trying or that I'll stop being annoyed at it when it really clashes with my schedule (like when I had an exam during Yom Kippour).
I apologise as that wasn't my intention.
Thank you.
Daily newspapers here vilify every act by the Jewish and US government into monstrous proportions over every policy and action, and the Fundamentalists respond by exaggerated Islamic slogans and death threats. So it takes a bit more than a displeasure over a fanfic signing event for me to take it seriously. Viewed against a backdrop of political turmoil and instability in the Middle East and the very real racism against all above-mentioned parties here, this thing about fanfiction seems childish to me.
You're right that there's a lot of more horrible things happening in the world related to this, and that it seems a very minor point of complains in comparison. However I think it's still worthwhile to make. I mean, I can't do much about the amount of vilification of the Jews and of the US made in Arab media, you know. But fandom is my home. It's a place where I can talk and, hopefully, be heard. It might not be much, but it's something I may influence, by speaking my displeasure of it and supporting the people who do.
It certainly happened from a tiny issue. But sometimes that's just a pretext to address bigger ones.
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Date: 14 October 2007 08:52 pm (UTC)That's the disturbing part. How easily such a small thing reveals the gaping divide in society.
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Date: 15 October 2007 10:24 am (UTC)As somebody who lived in Israel for years after high school, and has faced real life antisemitism throughout my entire life, I of course, find antisemitism in fandom to be on a much smaller scale.
However, fandom is a community I consciously chose to join, and seeing ugliness in a place that was supposed to be a welcoming and safe space, is extremely disturbing. In the last two days alone, a close friend has been called a kike, and I was the recipient of an antisemitic lecture in another friend's journal. There have been dozens of comments coming out of this from people I'd previously respected and liked. It was like turning over a rock and finding rotting maggots underneath.
So yes, in that context, it may seem "childish" and amusing, but when you are faced with antisemitism staring you in the face, it *hurts*. No matter *what* the context.
I found deb's post to be silly. Very, very, very silly. And I found the idea that everybody in the world should magically know all about every religion and their holidays to be even sillier. Deb's post is not what my post was about (my five posts by now, cause this grew and grew).
I posted about two main points. The first was that I found it incredibly disturbing that Deb's post opened the gateway to numerous hostile comments, which weren't mocking her for being silly, they were mocking her for being *Jewish*.
The other point I posted about was not that I find Christmas exchanges to be oppressive. I actually find them to be quite lovely, because they fill many people with joy and happiness and I get to read lots of stories. However, I do find them to be *based on Christmas*, being that they have titles from Christmas songs, use the word Santa, and go live on Christmas. And I think there's nothing wrong or oppressive or antisemitic with any of that at all. Not even a little bit. My issue is with the fact that when most people try to point out that of *course* the exchanges are Christmas-based, the reaction tends to be complete denial at best, and outright hostility at worse.
I hope that helped clarify things a bit, and I'd be happy to discuss this more, if you're interested or still have questions. If this was a bit rambly, I apologize. It's 3:30 in the morning here and I've answered literally over 100 comments today.
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Date: 15 October 2007 10:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 13 October 2007 12:33 pm (UTC)