Legitimacy of inspiration, borrowing, and stealing in writing

[salinea]

I have a friend, Nicky, who wants write a novel out of an aborted campaign at a roleplaying game he was mastering.

So he talked to me about it, saying he was going to do that, and I was immediatly scandalized. Nicely, but scandalized all the same. "You can't do that ! You can't my character and the others' and use them in your story without asking for our permission first !"

Anyway, Nicky got a bit mad at me in the first place. Found me too preachy and moralisating on this, and said he would have asked the others anyway, and he didn't like my attitude, and it made him want to give up on it all. Apart from that, we didn't stay mad at each others or anything, and now he's asking me for the permission to use my character, now that he's got the others' agreement.

And I'm not sure what to answer.

On the one hand, I don't want to say yes because from all i've seen, I don't have the feeling that he would respect the character's integrity has I've written him.
This is a character I liked especially, one I'd written in the background of other characters, one i've written small fictions about. One I tried to put in other chronicles when his was over because he discontinued it.

For Nicky, it's just inspiration, he doesn't even believe he needs my agreement. He definitly doesn't want to stop writing what he wants to write if I don't give a permission. He's just asking by politeness. He's just going to take some features of my character, his background and his personnality, and adapts them for his new setting (since he doesn't plan on using the official setting of Exalted - he wants to be able to try selling this novel professionnaly)

So, on the other hand, how much do I care about this character ? I mean, it's just a roleplaying character, and Nicky is one of my friend. I'm probably splitting hair in four (hey, I'm a Virgo, after all) over some flimsy pretext, and I'm just being overly possessive of my character.

But you know, this thing matters for me. Not so much because of the character, but on a question of principle. Is that hypocritical of me for someone who's immerged in the culture of fandom and fanfiction ?
Actually I think that's fanfiction that makes me so sensible to this thing.
Because in fanfiction we might borrow, use and abuse things to our heart's content, but at least we aknowledge that we do so. We put that disclamer above it stating that these characters and this world doesn't belong to us, that we are, indeed, borrowing it. We don't change the character's name, at least, not without good reason ^^ we don't lie about what we do. It might mean jack from a legal point of view, it's still illegal if the author cares enough to sue us, but from a point of view of legitimacy, I feel like it matters.

In the first place, the idea of using a story created for a specific, licenced world, and changing it to become original sorts of shock me. I find it a bit dishonnest intellectually. Why not write as is and let it be a fanfiction for Exalted ? It's not the first time I'm thinking that, as I once gave the same advice to a writer of a fanfic I love because even if it looked little like the original work it was a fanfiction of, it was written with those specific characters in mind, and simply changing their names and features wouldn't change that. It's just a way to avoid legally crediting the person you borrowed them from.

I don't think that for my friend Nicky, all these subtlelities matter. He wants to take my character and make it his character, take what he wants and abandon the rest, in the same way that he'll take what he wants of the Exalted setting and give up the rest. And that bothers me. It also bothers me that he's only pretending to ask, that he doesn't give any legitimacy value to my permission... in other word, I feel pressured to agree just because he's my friend and he wants it, without having any real and actual control over my character. If someone asks for my permission, I want my permission to actually mean something, if you see what mean.

Some of my friend's arguments are about inspiration, which happen all the time and in all kind of direction in artistic matters. We create characters that are inspired from famous one from there or here all the time. I know that myself, i 've made lots of characters for RPG that were translated from various characters I liked in movies, books and mangas.
So what's the difference ? What's the difference between taking inspiration from, which is legitimate whether you aknowledge the source or not (or is it only when you do ?), and with borrowing ? What's the difference with borrowing from someone you know, who might be mad if you use their work without asking; and borrowing from a famous source like in fanfiction where a mere disclamer might be enough ? When is it considered as stealing to take something, characters, or situations, to use them for your own story ?

I feel like there is one, between all those things. I have a hard time exactly pinpointing what it is. Do you think i'm out of my bound and I should give my agreement anyway, so my friend can write the story he wants to write ? Or should I do it only if I feel like my friend is going to respect my vision of the character I wrote ?
Do you have any advice, or anecdotes to give me relating to this kind of subject ?

Comments

[catrinella.livejournal.com]

It's difficult. The original fantasy novel I'm working on (and will probably be working on until I die) is based on characters I created for a shared-universe storytelling game. The game itself wasn't based on anything in particular, but I built the characters and backstory for the purpose of playing with these people. Luckily, (a) I'm not using anyone else's characters or plot, and (b) the relevant people are happy that I'm doing something with the idea even six years after I quit playing with them.

Would it bother you more if he took your character without permission and used it, or if you said yes and he did something you don't like with your character? Would it be okay if he changed the name and some identifying features? I don't know where those lines are drawn; I do know that I would say no.

I'll be curious to see what you decide, and how he reacts....

[laurus-nobilis.livejournal.com]

I don't have a fixed opinion on this kind of problems, but I *have* thought about it a while ago. (My situation was a bit different, though: I was trying to decide if a fic should be AU or if I should just go for something original. In the end I didn't do any of those things because I'm lazy.) So this comment is going to be more rambling than anything else, but perhaps it helps a little, anyway.

I think there's a difference between "Character X with a few changes" and "Character Y, inspired by Character X". It's blurry, but it's there - the problem is that it's mostly about the writer's intention, and it's nearly impossible to prove what that intention is. The way I see it, in the first case the writer is just lazy, while in the second case the writer is taking something and working from there to make something new. But how does one judge that?

In the first place, the idea of using a story created for a specific, licenced world, and changing it to become original sorts of shock me. I find it a bit dishonnest intellectually. Why not write as is and let it be a fanfiction for Exalted ?
I agree with that. I don't think it would bother me if your friend wanted to write it just for fun, or to post it online, but it does seem dishonest to try to publish it professionally. I don't know if there's actually something legal against it, but it doesn't feel right to me.

It's harder to have an opinion about "borrowing" your character, because I don't know many details. I think it depends on how much it will change, but it still feels weird to me. Unless it was an archetype - I think those are more like mythological figures. In that case, it's like the Wise Old Mentor thing; you can't say that Dumbledore is "copied" from Gandalf (in any case, they're both copied from Merlin/Odin). But that doesn't seem to be the case, if you're friend felt the need to ask.

I guess this isn't too useful, because I can't say anything certain, but I hope it helped anyway. :)

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Yeah it's complicated. May I ask you, if you hadn't been able, in your shared universe storytelling game, to get all the people's agreement, would you still have gone ahread, and why ? Does it make a difference to you that you weren't using their characters or plot for this ?

Would it bother you more if he took your character without permission and used it, or if you said yes and he did something you don't like with your character?
The former, I think, because at least it wouldn't have my "stamp of approval" on it if it goes wrong. I think what I'm afraid of is giving my permission, and then not liking what he does with it, not thinking of it as my character. It's a trust question, and I have trust issues the size of Mt Everest

Would it be okay if he changed the name and some identifying features?
He's planning on doing this anyway. And change part of the backstory too. And no, it doesn't feel much better unless... I don't know, unless he goes further away and makes a new character taking inspiration from him, sort of.

I'll be curious to see what you decide, and how he reacts....
We'll see. I hope everyone's advice will help. I would also very much to be able to deal with it without quarreling with this friend :(
He's reading my journal from times to times, I wonder if it's going to make him see my point of view better.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

your rambling is lovely, thank you ♥

I think you define perfectly the difference between "Character X with a few changes" and "Character Y, inspired by Character X". I also think the difference is about the writer's intention, what they hold in their mind while writing, and that makes it very difficult to define. I mean, I don't think any less of "borrowin", I don't think fanfic is a lesser form of writing. But there's a difference between that and writing something that's taking inspiration from another work. Even if it's hard to judge from the outside.

I don't know if there's actually something legal against it, but it doesn't feel right to me. Yes, it's a question of ethics for me, not legalities. Anyway, RPGs are a very strange domain in the first place because they are worlds where we are supposed to write our own plot (and they themselves are often very obviously inspired from existing fictions). But still...

But that doesn't seem to be the case, if you're friend felt the need to ask.
He talked to me about it without asking, so I don't know if he would have anyway. I don't think he sees the need for asking in general, apart from politeness. But, no, it's not just the archetype, it's also part of the backstory ^^

and thanks, it was most helpful.

[goldenh.livejournal.com]

I think it's an ethical dillemia... you don't have the right to tell him he can't use your character. But, he also doesn't have the right to take away your anger if you don't like what he does.

Unless he's willing to work with you to do a faithful representation of your character, which might not even be his intention (and if it isn't, you shouldn't try and make it be), he's just going to have to accept the consequences of his actions - which you both will react to in a different way.

[catrinella.livejournal.com]

if you hadn't been able, in your shared universe storytelling game, to get all the people's agreement, would you still have gone ahread, and why ?

Not in the way I'm doing it. I would have taken the original character sketches/backstories that I wrote before introducing them, and started again from that point; doing this would lose a lot that we developed in the game, even though i'm not using their characters or our common plots, but there are fragments that have worked their way into what I'm writing now. If I couldn't make it work like that, then yes. I'd let it go, no matter how much it hurt. (I'd probably turn it into a script for a comic or graphic novel, just based on the backstory, before completely trashing it.)

It sounds like the trust is already breached, however he decides to handle it, just by the way the subject was brought into conversation as an almost-done deal.

[lynnenne]

Here via metafandom.

What's the difference between taking inspiration from, which is legitimate whether you aknowledge the source or not (or is it only when you do ?), and with borrowing ?

Legally, there is no difference. If you create a character with a certain name (e.g. Superman) who has certain unique qualities (he lives in Metropolis, he works for the Daily Planet, he's vulnerable to Kryptonite) then the copyright for that character and those names belong to you, whether you've been published or not. As long as your friend changes the essential details of the character--e.g. he changes the character's name to Spiderman, who lives in New York and works for the Daily Bugle--there's no copyright infringement. It doesn't matter that they both have superstrength and fight crime. Those are character traits that are shared by any number of superheroes, and are not subject to copyright protection.

The difference between what your friend is doing and what fanfic does is that we *are* guilty of copyright infringement. We write stories about Superman without the express permission of the copyright holders. Disclaimers do absolutely nothing to protect us against being sued. The only reason the author's DON'T sue is that we're not making any money from it, so it's not worth their time and effort. On the other hand, if we changed Superman's name to Dumbelman, changed his circumstances and made him wear a green suit instead of a red-and-blue one, we could write as many stories as we like--even have them published, and make money off them--and the creators of Superman would have nothing to say about it.

Your friend is right--he DOESN'T need your permission. He's just being polite. If you want to keep him as a friend, you should give it to him. If you don't want to keep him as a friend... well, that's up to you.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

thanks for passing by, and for your advice.

I had absolutly no delusion about the nature of copyrigth infrigement of fanfics. However, legality and ethics are not the same thing. As I was trying to say, I do think that there's ethical difference; and that fanficcing in general makes one more aware of these muddled grey areas in way that my friend wasn't.

My question is more along the line of : what do you think is most right, honnest, and ethical to do. Write a story about "Dumbelman" who wears green but is obviously copied as a concept from Superman ? Or write a story about "Superman", make no money out of and mention the original creaters of the story ?

For me it's the latter. Of course, I'm sure opinions may vary on the subject ^^

I'm not about to stop being friend with someone over that kind of matter. No more am I likely to give in to pressure to not stop being friends.

[kutsuwamushi.livejournal.com]

For me, neither is the most right. Neither is wrong.

I think that putting restrictions on other people's imaginations is far more ethically troubling, especially when we're talking about the very fuzzy line between "theft" and inspiration.

And I don't see the problem with changing a story to make it original. I'm confused about why you find it wrong, actually? Even if I agreed that it's wrong to borrow another's setting, I can't understand why it matters what the story started out as. What matters is what the story *is*.

For example, I once helped create a game with another person. In this game, my main character was one I had based on another person's character. After the game died and the original creator and I had a falling out, I continued to use this character and the setting in informal roleplay with friends. Over the years, I made modification on top of modification. Now, the only thing left of the original game is a couple of names, and the rest is all mine.

You should judge the story by how it is when it's finished, not how it is when it's begun. You might find that there are enough differences that it doesn't seem like a rip-off to you.

And, to be quite honest, I'm not familiar with Exalted, but if it's like most other RPGs that I've seen, the setting is not all that unique beyond some unique facts. If he changes those, his setting will probably be quite generic. In other words, having a lot in common with the game, but having lots in common with a thousand other stories as well.

If I was you, I would sit down with your friend and explain my feelings about what he's doing (I like honesty) - but I would also tell him that permission isn't needed. Then I would request that he change my character's name, if I was worried about him "butchering" my character. That way, if he did, it simply wouldn't be my character all.

[mgsmurf.livejournal.com]

Here via Metafandom

So, here's an interesting article (http://www.hollylisle.com/fm/Articles/wc3-3.html) about how to bascially steal all those things you're a fan of for professional gain. I don't believe the author has ever written fanfic though. But maybe it will help understand how I see you can take away the heart of what you love about a character or world, change the details of the rest and make it your own.

I also think that perhaps the changing what is already copyrighted material into truly your own is probably a slight art form, or at the least takes practice, because not done well and it shows that you're stealing and I've read some origfic where it's obvious enough it would never/rarely sell for that very reason.

As an example, I think the trick to the Angel character is his immaturity. If I simply make an anti-hero with that trait taking away the being a vampire, LA, demon hunter and all the rest what have I really stolen? The character may feel like Angel because they have the same magic to them, but clearly if the rest of the character, world and setup is mine I don't think anyone would think anything really stolen. In fact, I can think of many examples of just little details stolen and built around in things, sometimes it's even the key to why I like similar things. All that building and just the tiny bit of stealing, that's likely the clue to where the line lays. On the other hand, if want you is to write about the world and characters you love, exactly fanfic (or the professional writings of worlds) is where to be.

Lastly, the character you created is ours. If he changes it I suppose it's not anymore yours, sorta, and he is asking permission to do so. You could always ask if the novel would work with another similar yet not based on your character.

[rahirah]

Here via metafandom...

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with using the basic plot of a roleplaying adventure as inspiration for a novel--if it's done well, it'll have to be changed radically anyway, so it's very unlikely that the end product will be much like the adventure that inspired it. I have heard a rumor that Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos series is loosely based on an RPG he and his friends used to play, and Raymond Feist's Midkemia series is definitely based on an RPG. I think several other fantasy series may have similar backgrounds. It can be done, and (at least in Brust's case) done well enough to completely transcend the original inspiration.

I'd be very, very dubious about nicking other people's characters for such a project without permission, though, and I think that the creators of those characters have every right to withhold permission for their use if they so choose.

[filenotch.livejournal.com]

here from the same source.

Thank you for commenting about the fanfiction relationship. That was my first thought upon reading the post - how is it different what he wants to do, other than copyright violation? Yet it does feel different. Authors aren't real people to us. We don't know them. As public figures, they lose humanity in our eyes. Our friends, however, should be real.

I'm in the same situation as etrangere's friend, in that I'm writing a novel that has roots in an RPG (o1d sk001 D&D), but I've renamed most of the characters. Also, fifteen years later I don't remember all the player-created details, and have written new backstories. My situation is complicated by the fact that about eight years ago another player in that dungeon created a game (non RPG) with our DM's help, and then published it under his own name. I haven't let him read it yet. Since the history (game adventure) is actually a book within my book, the line gets even less clear.

So, no conclusions, but a thank you for bringing up the fanfic parallel.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

*nods* I totally agree with you about the fact authors don't seem real to us, and that friends should be. And yeah, at the same time it's rather hypocrital of us !

From what you said about your own adaptation in novel, it's more removed from the gameparty, more inspiration reformulated into a new story than what my friend intend to do ^^ And D&D's main worlds are generalist enough that I'm not at all bothered by the fact of using them as setting to adapt either (assuming it wasn't an original world in the first place...)
I hope that with my friend it's also going to evolve far enough from the original ^^

thanks for commenting ^^

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

wow, that's a very interesting article ! Thanks for linking to it (will need to show it to my friend ^^)

I think you describe the nuance between them in an interesting way. It's the difference between archetypes and a specific character, I guess. The idea of a character, the idea of a world, where details can change greatly. At the same time it's hard to pin what, exactly, is the "soul" of a character, a setting, a story. What is the thing that makes them recognisable and them, and would be copied if reused.

He mentionned having the replace the character by another one that would work in the same way in the plot if I said no and he didn't sound very enthousiasmed. I already pretty much followed goldenh's advice on this and told him I couldn't make him do anything about his writing, and he couldn't make me happy about the end result XD.

Thanks for your comment !

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think it's been done several time with more or less success.

It all depends a lot of how much the story is based on the setting, and how unique is the setting. Lots of D&D campaigns work just as well in any generic fantasy world - because that's what they are. Exalted is a game that mixes a lot of genre from pre-Tolkien pulp fantasy to Wu xia with a good dash of manga. However his story was pretty unique so I'm not so worried about that apart from the way he can translate the Exalted "classes" which are all reincarnating superheroes inspired by the Gods of the setting and with specific themes.

Characters are a touchy subject, we made them, we invest them with ourselves and we always feel proprietary of them.