Character death (spoilers for X, Gankutsuou, BtVS and ASOIAF)

[salinea]

One of the funny thing with HP7 release date's annuncement is how everyone is making angsty posts at their journal telling about their fear about the death of a favourite character (Snape, Remus, Lucius, Draco, Harry, what have you...)


I'm a bit surprised by how many people seem to fear such a thing. There's lots of characters I love but I don't think I'd mind seeing them die in a book all that much. Not as long as the character death was cool.

I think, part of it at least is that I love character death as a scene. They're hot, high in emotions, high in symbol, and well done can be absolutly beautiful.
One of the only BtVS episode to which I cried was Becoming, for exemple, not because I liked the pairing (I don't), not because I'm such a big fan (I was a casual viewer at that time), merely because it hit me hard on that kink. A good character death (who cares if he didn't stay dead).

The first fic I wrote (which was in BtVS) was a death fic.

Then there's Tokyo Babylon which plays the character death thing to perfection. Rainbow Bridge is one of my favourite scene in the whole world (and the Hokuto's death echo too!!). It's bloody sexy and gorgeous. It's not a death scene, it's a sex scene. It's everything I love about Seishirou and Subaru including the non existence of the word "love".

When I was reading ASOIAF I was never bothered by the death of character. Always felt a bit befuddled hearing people sa they threw out their book against when various characters whom they happened to adore died. I adored Oberyn's character, he's the sexisest of the novels, but when he died I was loving it because of how great the scene was. (So much for the Princess Bride...)

There's other characters whom I love who died. And make no mistake, I was moved. Occasionnaly I was weeping. But it always made me like the story (and the character!) more for it. Franz' death makes the whole character in Gankutsuou for exemple.

So yeah, a character death is the least thing I fear.

What I do fear is messing up with the characterization. When the plot becomes lame and clichéed. When it makes a character lose their appeal like Spike lost his appeal for me during Season 7. His death (quite a boring death, too!! not one I found hot) was just a cherry on the top of that loss of appeal.


So what do I fear for Book7? Mostly I fear silly characterization about my favourite characters that won't be easily fixed. Specific canon facts that will contradict future fics I won't have time to finish before June. And Severus/Lily *shudders*

Then again, last time the only thing I was fearing was JKR messing up with my idea of Regulus and then she did, but I loved it XD

I just hope I won't be disapointed.

But she can kill anyone she wants as far as I'm concerned.

Especially if the death is cool

*waves Bring on the Angst flag*

Comments

[rainmage.livejournal.com]

I don't hate character death either. Then again, it's something CLAMPverse taught me but I still think Kujaku was an idiot. Yeah, I fear the deaths before they happen or I can read/watch them, because I know that if I like the character I'll get emotionally involved, and I have this impending knot of "oh shit". After it happens I'm fine with it and I move on, occasionally being fond of it. But never before it happens.

Although I laugh a bit whenever someone whines/mocks about Sirius dying from a curtain. Old joke, but it still does me.

[purple-chalk.livejournal.com]

I think I rather agree. Death, especially in literature (and, mind you, I am not calling the Harry Potter series literature), is always for a bloody good reason. In my own novel, I've tried restructuring it four different ways to see if I can avoid killing one of my favorite characters. Thing is, it simply doesn't work. He has to die, it's half the plot. Not only that, but most of the character development with the others takes place only because of his death. It's just... nothing to be upset about, at least not in a throwing-the-book-away sort of thing (I hope).

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Haha, yes Kujaku... it was so selfless and sorts of pointless *sobs* but I could love him for it.

Sirius' death is so lame and anticlimatic it becomes cool! XD I still laugh at theme too!

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

I call literature anything that's written XD

Yeah, I think writers avoiding to kill some of their character can be the worse thing to happen to a novel. See Robert Jordan, and LKH for bad exemples. Often some kind of death is necessary to pull a story through.

What's your book about?

[laurus-nobilis.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. You know, I can see both sides of the argument.

Personally, I agree with you: character death isn't a bad thing. I don't like it when it's there just for shock value, but most of the time, it's necessary. I remember I was puzzled when GoF came out and the news started rambling about character death... I remember reading loads of children's books with deaths! It's not traumatizing or anything (hello, Little Women).

On the other hand, you said this: Always felt a bit befuddled hearing people sa they threw out their book against when various characters whom they happened to adore died, and I don't think that's a bad reaction from the readers. Death scenes, if they're well-written, *should* move you, make you sad or angry or impotent. That's their point. It's probably a good thing that it made someone throw the book against the wall. (I would be puzzled if they threw the book because they thought the author shouldn't have included a death, though.)

Also, one can be rational about character death and still not want it to happen. ;P To keep with the HP example: I really, really want Harry to live. I see how it would make sense to kill him in the end, and that's why I'm open to the possibility, but in my heart of hearts I want him to live and be as happy as possible because I think he deserves it after all the ordeal. So I understand the angsty posts too.

I think part of the angst also comes from the fact that it's a series. You have a lot more time to think about these things. When I'm reading a book, I don't try to guess who'll live and who won't; I don't have the time to worry about it. But in this case, with years between book and book... yeah, I've spent a lot of time wondering about The Life or Death of Remus Lupin, for example.

In the end, I think I'm in the middle. I never want my favourite characters to die. But, like you, I love death scenes themselves, the more moving the better. Some of the most memorable book scenes I've read are death scenes. Little Women. LotR (Theóden always makes me cry my eyes out, always). The Neverending Story. I could go on and on and on.

.. you know, you've just made me think that maybe one reason why I don't want more deaths in HP is that I'm pretty sure they won't be very well-written or moving. I mean it with all the love in the world, because I still like the books and I'm excited about Book 7 - but they're not exactly the greatest work of literature out there, heh. (The plus side of knowing this is that I won't be upset about sillyness or genre clichés; I know what I'm reading, after all.)

[ariss-tenoh.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... I think death in visual medium and a written one is different. In anime/movie/manga, you can see exactly how the writer intended that death to be and its dramatic value in the plot. In writing? Not so much because a reader's imagination rarely matches the author's.

That said, the ONLY deaths I enjoy are those by Clamp. The ladies know how to kill a character in style! XD

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

It really depends on the reason the death is in the story. Is it there for good plot reasons, like some speculation around Harry's possible death and why it has to happen? Or is it one of those Joss Whedon-esque character deaths where he's utterly run out of new ideas and just kills someone off to set the story in a different direction (although that stops working, too, after the 5th story line concerning "character A reacts to character B's deathomg!!")

Some character deaths just piss me off, not because I'm attached to the character, but just because there was no reason for it (not even "I needed something bad to happen for no reason to make a philosophical point") except the writer's total lack of imagination

[bitterfig.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's because I'm a pessimist but I often find myself eagerly anticipating character death. There are so many stories that seem to come to end on an emotional high note with an apparent death and then there is a tacked on happy ending where we learn the protagonist was just injured and everything is happy. It seems anti-climactic. A good character death can be an unspeakably beautiful moment of consumation as in the case of Rainbow Bridge. Another good example of this is the first slash couple I ever got into, Mr. Orange and Mr. White from the movie Reservoir Dogs. The final moments of that film are so powerful and heartbreaking.

[sakanagi.livejournal.com]

Interesting...I suppose I agree in a way. I'm not following HP yet, but if I was then one reason I'd not want a character to die might be that I liked seeing them appear so much that it'd be a pity if they didn't get as much screen time as they could have done - better to have them die off in the last chapter of the last book, to maximise appearances. But then again, that wouldn't necessarily make for a good story. If character Insert Name Here has to die in order to further the plot or to make a point, well, then that's the right choice for the author to make.

Tokyo Babylon/X is like that too. Hokuto's death and Rainbow Bridge were both wince-inducing for me, but those were the endings that those characters had to have, or else they'd have been different characters altogether, and much more boring ones too. So I can appreciate those two death scenes, and I think they're lovely despite the partial "Noooo! Death of favourite character!" reaction. The thought of the canon story with those scenes left out would be unthinkable - what a waste of the plot. (But for fanworks there's nothing wrong with the odd piece of AU to fill the what-if gap!)

[su-chan.livejournal.com]

It's not a death scene, it's a sex scene. It's everything I love about Seishirou and Subaru including the non existence of the word "love".

In way , it is ^____________^

I also like deaths, becasue they kill me, I don not want to lose the character, I but I do like he/she dying... too twisted.... O_o;

[purple-chalk.livejournal.com]

....When people ask me that I end up staring blankly at them then handing them the first couple chapters. The characters explain my story so much better than I do.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

That's probably true, but most people like having a spare idea of what's a story to know whether it's to their taste or not because wanting to start reading it fully. It would be a bit like giving the territory to someone who was asking for a map. Not the same use.

[purple-chalk.livejournal.com]

Nngh. You know that movie, Stranger Than Fiction?

Mine's better and I started it first.

[o-on00b.livejournal.com]

agree.. as long as the death is cool i dont mind..
tho, i have to be honest.. i will cry myself to sleep forver if Lucius join the order or somthing :p hehe.. but whats the chanse :p

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

No, I don't.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

OKay, you're right. Shock value death are bad.

Media are stupid and know nothing of what they're talking about. It is known.

And yes you're right, I understand being moved by it. I guess it's mostly I've never been moved to throw a book a away. (I have put a book down and started pacing, dancing even... or running through my house. But not throwing ^^) but the reaction is perfectly legitimate in and of itself.

I don't think, actually, that it would be an excellent idea to kill Harry at the end. In another book it could work, but with Harry, with this world, that would be dark to the point of absurd ending, and not at all fitting with the previous set ambiance. I don't think Harry will die - at least not permanently (I'm thinking Buffy's season 1 death here) Therefore I agree with you!

LOL, JKR writes very quick blink and you miss it death scene. Sometimes it works (for Cedric it was shocking) sometimes it doesn't (Sirius' was just lame) We'll have to see how she handles those in DH...

I don't trust much into JKR overall. I have very low expectations. Yet, HBP did surprise me positively (not that it didn't have flaws!)... so well, I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

I'm not a visual person. I'm like the least visual person ever. And I still like written death scenes, I do, I do.

But yes, Clamp do rock mightily at them (though the ones in RG Veda are a little tiny bit overboard)

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Gratuous death are annoying, though I wouldn't call that many Whedonesque death gratuous (the after effect, maybe more so...)

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes, exactly my feelings!

I still need to watch Reservoir Dogs! I need to rend a DVD or something^^

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

I see your point about more screen time; but often when a character die they get good screentime at that point (to maximize effect y'know)

I adore both Hokuto and Seishirou's death; They make total sense. I really really love Hokuto for the way she died, such a hopeful death.

Anyway it's book 7 - there won't be any more books, so characters might as well die now ;)

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Eros/Thanatos OTP!

(and Seishirou is uke ;))

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

I could see Lucius surviving so as to save himself and his family by making a strategic alliance with the Order. Common sense and Slytherin's cunning. It's not like he's a fanatic like Bellatrix.

[laurus-nobilis.livejournal.com]

I'm really, really easy to get moved by books. ^_^ Even to the point of wanting to throw them... not that I actually do it, poor books!

I have low expectations about the quality of book 7, but I still think I'll enjoy it very much. I see the HP series as the equivalent of "popcorn movies", after all. They're there to have a good time, but I don't expect them to be great (but I don't think they're as bad as some people say, either). I think the fandom would save themselves a lot of headaches if they took themselves less seriously and admitted they're reading silly kid's books.

[purple-chalk.livejournal.com]

I'm so incredibly glad to hear that.

...

The novel kind of... twists and gallivants around the relationship between an author and her character.

[o-on00b.livejournal.com]

now thats one thing aint it.. to trade his safty for voldemorts life or something.. but for him to "see the light" would be a bummer.. i like him evil *rubbs hands together*

[bitterfig.livejournal.com]

Reservoir Dogs is an amazing, viseral movie. Dark, bloody and tragic. I also credit it with getting me into writing slash. The Mr. Orange/Mr. White relationship is to me the definition of subtexual homoeroticism.