Satisfy my curiosity

[salinea]

So am I the only one who, when someone casually mentions deleting their old fics or making them unaccessible in any other way has this reaction in her mind :

OH MY GOD YOU EVIL BOOK-BURNING PERSON !!!


I mean, obviously, I doesn't make much sense : we're talking about the authors of those fics. If they're the intellectual owner of that work, they should be perfectly morally allowed to make it unaccessible.

However there's still that thing in the back of my brain that insists : IT'S LIKE BURNING BOOKS ! EVIL ! EVIL ! EVIL !

Am I the only one ?

Comments

[indigestible.livejournal.com]

Ahaha, I don't know if you are the only one, but given that I do that all the time, I obviously don't feel the same way. It's more like throwing out yesterday's paper to me, you know? That's over and done with and I don't need it around anymore, so good-bye!

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Yeah I remember it was with you I first encountered that feeling

- "say where's that lovely Subaru and Hokuto masturbating ficlet you wrote two monthes ago ?"
- "Oh, I deleted it."
- "YOU WHAT ?" *sound of jaw hitting the floor*

I guess I might be compulsive about keeping everything. I keep very ugly old drawings I was doing when I was 14, for exemple >_>; I'd feel bad about throwing them away... like I would loose a part of myself that I could never find otherwise.

[xochiquetzl]

I don't know about that, but I don't delete my old fic. I would feel like I was erasing my own history, or something.

Some people email archives and ask for all their fic to be removed when they leave the fandom. That's just wrong, IMHO. Your old fic is a gift to the fandom; it's part of their history, too.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's close to my feeling.

There's this whole idea that once you published a fanfic on the web, it's not yours to touch anymore. If you're the only one who's ever seen what you wrote, it doesn't shock me if you delete your own work. But once it's published, it's done. It's out there. Free for all. It feels unfair to take it back.

[rainmage.livejournal.com]

Not when the thing I deleted was a Mary Sue story from 2001. *shudders*

But apart from that... agreed.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

But it's cheating to delete it, isn't it ? Like lying : Oh, now I never wrote such a thing, lets hide all the evidences of guilt ;)

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Well, I do have to say I don't get it. I've saved everything I've ever written (fiction, I mean), even if it was crap, because I put time and effort into it. It may be hiding out in a file at the bottom of a box stuffed in my storage locker where no one will see it ever, but I can't just throw it away!

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

*nods* that's the "part of my history" feeling xochiqutzl mentionned. I do the same, really.

[stoicstella.livejournal.com]

I don't know if I have the same compulsion as you, but I don't understand deleting your old fiction. I have taken some of my old stuff down from archives in hopes of reworking it, and left it on my computer because I didn't feel it was worth sharing anymore, but I kept it. I still have a drawer full of the writing I did in junior high. They are reminders of how I have grown as a writer, even if I would die of embarrassment if anyone ever read them.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

I had lots of poetries from when I was in highschool on my computer, and then a virus totally wiped it away... I grieve that awfully, even if they were terrible and I'd never have shown them to anyone.

[bronze-ribbons.livejournal.com]

To me, it cuts two ways: on the one hand, I feel a writer can edit/delete at will whatever they put on the net. If they feel they've outgrown a work or that it no longer represents how they want to be seen/the impression they want to give new readers, that's their prerogative.

On the other hand, any writer who believes they have full control over their work once it's posted is deluding themselves. For instance, I've deleted hundreds of online diary entries over the years (some because they were unkind to other people, others because they linked to expired memes, and many just because I figured, better to winnow the thing down to 300-odd entries that represent the best of me than leaving 1000+ no one's ever going to wade completely through, much less discover the best ones on their own).

Some people have called that dishonest, but screw that: I believe in editing and finetuning and revision, and I don't pretend that I don't do it. (One reason I'm soooo behind on archiving my fics to Moonshadow and Skyehawke is that I want to be sure I've got the "final" wording correct.)

That said, I know of at least one mirror site, and of people saving stuff to hard drives/printing it out, and LJ quotes entries in comment-notifications, so are there tons of Peg-wordage out there that I have no control over whatsoever? Of course, and that's as it should be. Writers can't control *how* readers interpret their work once it's out there, and those who try to prevent republication/circulation of older stuff (beyond making their opinions known) are to be pitied.

But getting back to fandom: one can't save *everything* to disk, but one sometimes makes a point of it for fics or RP episodes one really loves. Because, aside from authors disavowing earlier work and other emotional/intellectual mayhem, who knows when a server might go kablooey or someone fail to renew a domain or whatever? :-/

[xochiquetzl]

I think of it as being like a Gnu Public License, in a way. You can save it to your hard drive. You can send your friend the link, and she can save it to her hard drive. I don't want people to sell it. I don't want people to put it on their website and say they wrote it. I don't want people to archive it without asking, because I think that archiving is, in a sense, an endorsement. But I think that's common; people pull their fic from archives if the archive makes a policy change they don't like. At the very least, my giving an archive my fic means that I trust them to not disappear or strip my name off and sell it.

[theladyfeylene.livejournal.com]

No, I'm the same way. Which is why, even though a lot of my old fics are pure crap, I don't delete them off the net. The only one I've ever taken off line is one that had an extremely original premise that I decided I wanted to use for an original novella.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

*nods* Yeah I can understand in this case.

[lefcadio.livejournal.com]

Hmm, it's hard. On the one hand... I don't like the idea of other people doing it - because if I've read a fic and liked it, and then it suddenly disappears, I feel cheated! :p
But... on the other hand, I do understand because I've done it myself. There have been things I wrote a long time ago, and when I looked back on them... they were awful. They really were. So, I deleted them, because I honestly couldn't see that they had enough merit to be worth keeping.
I think I've reached a point now, though, where I wouldn't delete anything - since I don't think my writing is currently so hideously bad I'd look back on it and want to get rid of it.

But... in general, I don't like the thought of getting rid of things - it can be fun to look back on old fics just as a matter of interest! :) I only did it to my own because it was things I wrote when I was quite young, and the childishness of it was quite far removed from the point I'm at now.

...or something. :p

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

errors of youth, again ^^ There's things we definitly don't want our name to be attached to XD

[skuldchan.livejournal.com]

I would say there's a little bit of a difference between book burning and deleting old fic...

The fact that somebody's work made it into a book means that they either took some pains to publish it themself, or that the publisher approved, which it meant it had some kind of merit.

It's kind of like throwing away a 3rd grade poem. I mean, it's just not a good example of your work. I personally think that if the author wants to delete his or her own piece, that's fine. If the fic is archived elsewhere (my first fic--god, it was a piece of crap--is still floating out there on the interweb somewhere, which is fine with me. I don't have it on my site, but that doesn't really give me the right, once I've already posted it, to tell other people that they can't), I don't think the author ought to be able to tell the archive "delete my stuff" especially if it's already posted in numerous places.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

I see the difference you mean, but I don't think that approval by an editor is necessarly a mark of worth. Lots of good writing exist that are not published and vice verca.

I think the question is... when we post a fic on the web... how much of a publication is it ? Is it different if it's posted at an archive ran by someone else or when it's just on a livejournal ? What about if we have our own website, or with auto archives à la ff.net ? How much private or public is it ?

I made the compareason with book burning especially to convey how sacrilegeous I consider destroying something of art (even something as small as fanfic) even if you were the author.

[laurus-nobilis.livejournal.com]

I don't mind either way. I don't see deleting fics as "cheating" or hiding what you wrote; perhaps people just think their older fics are a waste of space. *shrugs* It only bothers me when there's drama involved, like those authors who make a fuss about leaving the fandom or get into a fight with an archive's owner(s).

Personally, I haven't deleted any of my older fics simply because I'm used to keeping things (and because I'm lucky that I had my Mary Sue stage when I didn't know about fanfic, so they're all in original stories that nobody ever saw). The only fic I have online that makes me a bit uncomfortable is my old HP 5th year fic (now obviously AU). But the one time I thought about deleting it I noticed that some people still had it on their "Favorite stories" list at ff.n, and I didn't have the heart to take it down, no matter how much I hate it now.

I will admit that I wasn't exactly sad when my oldest fics were accidentally deleted during the Sugar Quill's change of server, though. :P

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

yeah drama is always funny ;p

But the one time I thought about deleting it I noticed that some people still had it on their "Favorite stories" list at ff.n, and I didn't have the heart to take it down, no matter how much I hate it now.
*nods* Yeah, that's why it shocks me. People count of the fact it's published somewhere on the web to get back to it and read it again obviously... taking it down deprieve them of that.

Hehe...

[ariss-tenoh.livejournal.com]

Definitely. It really makes me angry because when you've written fics and posted them online, they become part of the fan collective. If every person decided to remove their fics, what would be left? It's bad enough archives and websites disappear.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Yay, someone like me ! *shakes hand*

[catiechu.livejournal.com]

I got deseriously pressed when I found out my favorite FF8 fic author quit writing for good. :/

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

that's always sad. Authors move on to other things, it's natural, but removing everything you've made on the web because of that is very cruel.

[sakanagi.livejournal.com]

People deleting their old fanfiction makes me sad. It is also irritating, since I do go back to read old fanfics that I like every now and then, the way I do with books, and sometimes when I do they are gone. It's true that they've got every right to do that, but still...I don't really understand permanently deleting old fanfic, or any other sort of writing for that matter, and certainly not as a turning-a-new-leaf-in-life sort of thing. If a story is truly, truly sucky, then maybe it's not so bad if it goes from the net, but often a fanfic writer will, for some reason, be horribly embarrassed about a story that wasn't all that bad to start with. At worst, a story can at least be a reminder of how far a writer has improved since they wrote it.

Personally I'm hanging on to all the old diaries, stories and poems that I've ever had. Besides, I like my old poems better than most of the stuff I've written in the past decade. I want to be able to look back at all those things when I'm older.

[stoicstella.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with you there. I have gone through periods where I gave up writing completely because I thought everything I wrote was garbage. I buried my journal in the bottom of a drawer and vowed to never waste the paper or ink again. But then several months or sometimes years went by, and I would come across the old book and read it through, and some of those old poems or stories were really interesting to read, and I couldn't believe how insightful. Sure they could use polishing, but I was glad I didn't trash them.

I think a writer who throws away their old work is giving up on an important resourse, which is time to reflect. Some of the most insightful stories just need new perspective to be told.

[musigneus.livejournal.com]

As a reader, I hate it when something I want to re-read has vanished, because the author decided to delete it. As a writer, I can understand the temptation to delete occasionally. There's one of my stories that I think is not nearly as well done as it could have been and I have thought several times that I'd like to delete it - but I saw it on someone's list of favorite fics recently and thought, well, there's at least one person who'd be disappointed if it vanished! I still don't like the story, but other people do, and I'm not ashamed to admit it's mine. I'll just try to not make those particular mistakes again.

As for intellectual ownership, I think that's a bit tricky. I mean, if you buy a novel, the author may have intellectual ownership of it, but they can't make it unaccessible to you (unless they buy it back from you!). Admittedly, fanfic is posted for free, but I think there's still some expectation that once it's been made available, it will stay available. Deleting a fic (from all the sites where it used to be available, I mean, not discussing issues with a particular archive's policies etc.) violates that assumption.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

but I think there's still some expectation that once it's been made available, it will stay available.
*nods* I definitly have that assumption as well, but I suppose other people don't. Maybe people also have different expectations when it's posted on LJ (seeing it as more private maybe) or in other places.

[dizilla.livejournal.com]

I personally hate it when people delete their fics for reasons like "I'm tired of this fandom." When I was in the anime domains community, people would also get mad at sudden closures of websites. No warnings or offerings to give it away, just BAM! Done.

I tend to keep everything posted. I'm a packrat when it comes to stuff I've created, no matter how bad it may be.

But if an author does take it down, I won't bitch and moan about it. ^^

So no, you're not the only one. =P

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

No warnings or offerings to give it away, just BAM! Done.
It's doubly rude when there's no warning :(

^_^ I'm glad to know that, thanks for the comment

[cafecomics.livejournal.com]

I was first faced to this kind of thing six years ago and my gut reaction was "You can't, I love your fics !". As a reader, I'm always sad when an author does that. Now, as an archivist, I comply with the author's request but deleting the fic from the website doesn't mean I do the same on my local hard drive.

Now, when I really like a fanfic, I save it. I've been badly burnt when Capeside Diaries went boom (Yep, I'm a DC fan ;) )

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

It's sad when it gets to the point when we need to save everything by fear everything disapears from one day to another :( but yeah it's probably the wisest. I know I'll missa a lot of fics that have disapeared from the web.

[heikki-cheren.livejournal.com]

No, you're not.

Actually, it just reminded of something that happened on my flist a few weeks ago. Someone had decided to do NaNoWriMo. But she also decided that if ever she failed, she would totally give up on being a writer.
For many different reasons, she didn't have the time to write those damned 50 000 words. The problem is, she was true to her word. She deleted or destroyed everything she wrote so far.

I never read any of it, but the mere idea drew me mad. Argh.
Fortunately, there's one book she had published (I suppose she had paid for that?), and was willing to give her remaining copies to whoever wanted it. So, that will be at least one story saved, but...

[http://users.livejournal.com/ari_/]

I feel the same - which is why I have ~5GB of fanfic on my HD. I save *everything*.

[aruja.livejournal.com]

I tend to feel like that, with the exception of most of the stuff that shows up on godawful.net, most of that stuff should never have even been thought about let alone written, I'm all for deleting that kind of crap.

that's the only time I have ever deleted my own stuff, when, with the help of a friend who is a semi-regular on Godawful.net, I realized if I didn't delete some of my stuff fast that I would end up on there sooner rather than lator. but that was my pre-teen sailor moon and lord of the rings phase and I cringe to think of the levels of sueage that I had in those stories... so trust me its absolutely no loss to the fandom

[starwatcher]

.
Um... I don't see them as evil (as you say, it is theirs), but I do regard them as selfish. Maybe they don't like it anymore, maybe they're bored with the fandom, or maybe a bit embarassed because the writing is of lesser quality than they produce now... but there are established fans who want to reread the fics, and new fans who are waiting to fall in love with it. That can't be done if it's no longer available.

Which is why I save ALL the fics I want to read, or think I might want to read, either in HTML files, or pasted into Word. Fic is precious -- fic is my cigarettes, alcohol, and chocolate. NObody takes my fic away from me!
.

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

You are not alone. Also when people change screennames or delete their journals because of personal reasons and have some of their fic archived other places under that name, I want them to archive all their fic, not just one or two pieces that they happened to stick their on a whim.

[zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com]

I absolutely feel the same day. The closest I've ever come to that is removing the link to a fic off my home page, but I left the file up just the same. I totally get the bookburner rage.

Here via metafandom~

[elysian-stars.livejournal.com]

I completely agree with you. There's a story floating around online that I wrote several years ago, and I can't even bear to look at it anymore because it's so ridiculous. But it got a lot of positive reviews, and to this day I'm still being asked to complete it. So, all I've done is change the pen name I wrote it under - that way I don't have to delete it, but I also don't have to own up to it ^^;;

Last year, one of my favourite fanartists completely deleted her site because she didn't have any time to add new content. I had some of her pictures saved, and was lucky enough to get my hands on a rare doujinshi she drew, but a lot of beautiful drawings were lost to the fandom, and that saddened me.
Personally, I like to keep every drawing and piece of writing I do, even if it sucks, so that I can see how I've improved over time (and maybe salvage any ideas with potential).

[http://users.livejournal.com/solo____/]

I think authors are entitled to delete their work if they want, though they certainly won't gain my respect if they do it in a fit of pique.

But you know what? Everything I like, I save to my hard drive because of that very possibility.

Here via meta fandom

[pomkeygeekange.livejournal.com]

Just adding my two cents to the debate. As a fanfic writer personally if I was to delite anything I would always give warning, that way it would give people a chance to save it if they really wanted to. However there was only one story I have ever delited, and that was incomplete.

As a reader however I do find it anoying if there is something that I do go back to reread and it had been delited without warning. I think it is down to the author though, if you are not happy with a piece and want to delite it then thats your choice at the end of the day, however there is always someone out there who will like it even if you don't know it.