(no subject)

[salinea]

Question : am I the only one to think that talking of "yaoi" as a subgenre of "slash" is horribly ethnocentrist in that it considers the Western brand of homoerotic fandom as the more global, universal genre and considers the Japanese brand as a subset of it regardless of historical developments of either genre ?

PS : I'm not saying that penknife is ethnocentrist since she's only asking the question.

Comments

[schemingreader.livejournal.com]

No, you aren't the only one to think so.

Just because they are both genres of male/male romance doesn't mean they have anything else in common. Though I do see some borrowing in both directions, slash looks really different to me from yaoi.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Yeah there's lots of similarities because lots of fans cross between both genres and brings their ideas from it ^^

It's considering slash as more universal than yaoi that shocks me. Of course yaoi will look more exotic and strangely coded to us. That doesn't mean that slash doesn't have its own weird specificities if seen from the outside.

I really like the idea of considering it all subsets of homoerotic art in general...

[elihice.livejournal.com]

Nope. For me neither is a subgroup, rather than two classifications for different media. One (slash) is the direct result of fandom ( for the /), and I understand slash is a rather wide term than signifies only a relationship, not necessarily sex. Yaoi, on the other hand, implies (usually, although I've seen it used to include more) a sexual relationship, and thus is more specific term even if it's not a sub-classification. This is because yaoi has the extra shounen-ai term. I've seen the two terms (slash and yaoi) used in the same way, but in some groups (particularly doujin, manga sharing) the term yaoi is very specific.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

yeah people like using the two terms undiscriminently, which is not what disturbs me. Boys Love is more general in the context of Japanese homoerotic publications, isn't it ?

[rexluscus.livejournal.com]

I definitely think it's wrong-headed to think of slash as being more universal and yaoi as a subset of it. I mean, I think of "slash" as meaning nothing more or less than "any fanfic with same-sex romantic pairings," but what I expect from something calling itself "slash" is probably much narrower and more culturally specific than that. I can't see those cultural specifics clearly because they're so ingrained in me, but someone from another culture might look at what I'm reading and see it as just a strange little variant of yaoi.

It's tricky, though, because while I don't think "slash" and "yaoi" are interchangable terms (or that one is a subset of the other), I also don't feel that it's a good idea to start drawing hard lines about what constitutes "slash" and what constitutes "yaoi". If one tries too hard to force a crowbar between them and define "slash" strictly as these things over here and "yaoi" as those things over there, I think one is in equal danger of being ethnocentrist as if one were to claim that "yaoi" is just a flavor of "slash."

What I've seen in the yaoi/slash discussions that I don't like is a tendency to discount the individual creativity involved in producing yaoi - as though it's a completely pre-programmed formula and people just replicate the same thing mindlessly over and over. People always comment on the strictly defined seme/uke roles, the PWP-ness, etc. - all the conventions that stick out to Westerners because we don't share them. It's the cultural equivalent of saying "all black/asian/whatever people look the same."

I'd be curious to hear what traits of Western slash stick out to people not immersed in our culture. When someone says "all Western slash is the same" (as I'm sure someone does), what are they thinking of as the common traits? It's probably something we would never think of.

So yeah, the reason I'm leery of trying to pin down precise definitions of yaoi and slash is that I think that reduces them to formulas, and doesn't account for the fact that an individual person is expressing themself through this medium. It's fine to observe certain trends and genre conventions, but to say "your characters are in seme/uke roles, therefore you're yaoi, not slash, go stand over there" is just reductive and discounts the other characteristics of a work that may be more worth talking about.

Whoa. Sorry for the huge comment here.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

why are you appologizing ? I love long comment !

but what I expect from something calling itself "slash" is probably much narrower and more culturally specific than that. I can't see those cultural specifics clearly because they're so ingrained in me, but someone from another culture might look at what I'm reading and see it as just a strange little variant of yaoi.
YES ! Exactly. It's all about expectations we don't even realize that we have.

If one tries too hard to force a crowbar between them and define "slash" strictly as these things over here and "yaoi" as those things over there, I think one is in equal danger of being ethnocentrist as if one were to claim that "yaoi" is just a flavor of "slash."
You raise a good point. I agree with that as well. Forcing things into one or another genre because of any reason is artificial and prejudiced. Now that the genre have started crossing over because the fandom is usually exposed to both, I think the meddling will go on... and create other subgenres.

What I've seen in the yaoi/slash discussions that I don't like is a tendency to discount the individual creativity involved in producing yaoi - as though it's a completely pre-programmed formula and people just replicate the same thing mindlessly over and over.
True as well. I think the yaoi and Boys Love genre are in general much richer and varied that the specificities that are often pointed out, even if they make up a majority. It's like when people characterize all slash with only the qualities of "Buddies" ship, where equality is very fetishized, like I've seen some people do on that same thread.

I'd be curious to hear what traits of Western slash stick out to people not immersed in our culture. When someone says "all Western slash is the same" (as I'm sure someone does), what are they thinking of as the common traits? It's probably something we would never think of.
I'm very curious about that as well. It gets tricky because lots of non Western people are into Slash-and/or-Yaoi as well. I mean I know fans from across most continents.
Even though, I'm not sure what sticks out for them as different.

It's also a reason I "love" the genres that are specific to fandom. You know, angst, fluff, crack, H/C, Mpreg etc. It's fascinating that fanfic created those very unique, niches for itself rather than falling down on usual fiction categories. I find it fascinating ^^

It's fine to observe certain trends and genre conventions, but to say "your characters are in seme/uke roles, therefore you're yaoi, not slash, go stand over there"
Absolutly.
I think a lot of things comon to the seme/uke categorization can be found in lots of slash (and not only because people got used to it from yaoi) : D/s dynamics, what people call "feminization" of one character (I hate that term because it usually has nothing to do with what women are like)...
And assigning a identity to someone's work just because you know what it is better than the writer is just, plain rude. Exactly as assigning an identity to someone regardless of how they themselves self-identify as is rude and presumptuous.

[tiamatschild.livejournal.com]

I'd say that'd be a classic example of that particular problem, yes.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Thanks, I'm glad I'm not delusionnal ^^

Love your icon by the way, Orange Road used to be one of my favourite anime when I was a kid ^^

[tiamatschild.livejournal.com]

:D Oh, is that what it is? It was a meme present - I've been considering digging up the source, but haven't done it. *glad to know!*

And yeah. I mean, in some ways you could say that yaoi is a subgroup within the Japanese tradition of m/m homerotica produced primarily by women that does, in some ways, correspond to similar subgroups within the Western/English language tradition of m/m homeortica produced primarily by women, but, well, that's not what that sentence says.

[kamitra.livejournal.com]

Really good comments by everyone already on the subject. I don't think I can say anymore without repeating sentiments. :)

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

^_^

[ariss-tenoh.livejournal.com]

No, you're not. Here's another example of supposed Western superiority made by discounting the contributions of yaoi to homoerotica.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

*glomps* I was worried about you. I hope thinks are going to get better for you.