Rantish & musing about Gen

[salinea]

Sometimes the difference between gen and non-gen can be a very thin one indeed.

One of the thing that annoys me is clicking onto a a fic marked as Gen and finding slash (or het for that matter). Well, not slash as in depicting the relationship, but slash as in the relationship being part of the context of the fic, being a fact in that fic. Even if the focus isn't on romance (or sex), I wouldn't consider it as Gen.

They are some conditions when this slides more easily; when that relationship implied by the fic is canon, for exemple, people often don't think of it as a being non-Gen. I'm sure there's plenty of gen fics out there that mentions James' interest in Lily without tagging it as James/Lily. Or fics about the Weasleys that feature Molly and Arthur's relationship without calling it Arthur/Molly. Just yesterday I was reading a Vorkosigan fic tagged "Gen" where Cordelia was kissing Aral and thinking fondly about her relationship with him. Those things most often happen if the couple featured is a married one in canon. (Mariage as the death of romance, heh.)

But sometimes it also happens with ships that, without being canon, are popular enough that people like to consider them canon anyway (*cough*SiriusxRemus*cough*)
I'd read a "Gen" Sirius fic before, where in the middle of Sirius was starting talking about his boyfriend Remus and blahablahblah *facepalms* Not that it was a bad fic, far from it, just that it felt like biting onto something sour when you were expecting something sweet.

But today I saw a much subtle case of that. I was reading another fic about Sirius tagged as Gen linked from sirius_news : The window by moondagny
It's just a double-drabble and it doesn't tell us that Sirius and Remus are together, it only implies it in a very suble manner, with the line :

"He only knows that Remus is out there somewhere, on the other side of the window, and James, and Peter"

Since we know from canon the pair of friend that was the core of the Maraudeurs was James and Sirius, there's no explanation for putting Remus in exergue here unless Sirius has a romantic and/or sexual interest in Remus (at least the context of the fic doesn't provide any other reason).

That makes me laugh because it's both enough to trigger my teeth-gritting reflex and much too vague for me to complain about it XD.

Of course that's something that works in reverse too. There's a lot of fics out there tagged "Pre-Slash" which can perfectly be read as Gen.

Sometimes the borderline is so thin you could see it either way.

Any thoughts on the subject ? What would you call the limit between Gen and Slash/Het/Femslash ?

Comments

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

The problem is the categories "gen", "het", and "slash" are absurd to begin with. First of all, they're based on the assumption that 95% of everything that gets written in fan fic is sex- or romance-oriented, which is probably true, but that's not the onlything you'll find in a fic which revolves around a particular pairing/threesome, etc. A lot of what goes into those fics includes other things: mystery, adventure, history, etc.

Second, the category "gen" is the most absurd one of all. If you had to rate BtVS or Angel as "gen", "het", or "slash", which would you rate it? What about any other show on television?

Exactly my point. It's all of them and none. The categories are too general and too biased at the same time. I refuse to use those categories. If someone asks me what I write, I say, "action/adventure. Oh, and lately mystery and noir." Sex is part of life and sometimes there's sex. Romance and marraige are part of life and I have that, too.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

The problem is the categories "gen", "het", and "slash" are absurd to begin with.

Honnestly, I agree. Gen is, to begin with, much much too broad a supposed category.
That remains that an awful lot of fics are based upon shipping. And since what pulls me into the fandom (by opposed with just being happy watching/reading the stories I love) is often the shipping, I'm not going to be hypocritical about it ^^

But I do adore a lot of so-called Gen stories as well.

I'm not sure if it's entirely fair to compare fanfics to pro-stories (show in that case ^^)in terms of genre. I think there's a reason fanfic tends to define its own genres (angst, fluff, crack etc.) they're often not stories that stand alone, and as such, often focus more narrowly to one aspect (especially in the case of shorter works - novel-length are more comparable)

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Well, it's true that my novel-length fan fics are going to defy category more than others. But I still think it would serve us better if we had more categories ("action/adventure", "mystery", "historical", "angst-fic", with "this is pure pr0n" being one them) and just added a disclaimer on top of that genre categorization that specified het or slash, if applicable.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Yes you're right. Though I'd make that a disclamer about the specific pairings rather than het or slash ^^ especiall since fics can often be both at the same time !

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Another reason the het/slash/gen genres don't make any sense. They're not mutually exclusive!

[stephanometra.livejournal.com]

I think it's okay to obliquely make reference to a relationship in gen, although I agree that you have a little more license if the pairing is canon. The Hermione fic (http://stephanometra.livejournal.com/150860.html#cutid1) I wrote for springtime_gen includes ponderings on Neville/Ginny and explicit reference to Ron and Hermione as married, but the story isn't about the relationships - they're just part of the character's frame of reference when thinking about what is the subject of the fic (namely, Harry being dead and her nicotine addiction being part of her coping mechanism).

I've been guilty of the referring-to-Sirius/Remus-as-if-it's-canon thing before as well, but only once in a story I'd consider gen (http://stephanometra.livejournal.com/100418.html#cutid1) (and labeled as such, heh), and it absolutely wasn't central to the fic. More a plot device to get Sirius out of the house and drinking in a Muggle club, really. The only reason I mentioned it at all was to further Sirius' perception that everything in his life is turned upside-down and changing faster than he can adapt to, which was in direct contrast to the sacrifice that the reader knows Regulus is about to make, and just how much things really are going to change later.

I dunno. It's probably a case-by-case thing, and my standards for my own writing are almost certainly different than my standards with regard to other people's fic.

Definitely, definitely, if there's snogging it isn't gen. Pecks on the cheek yes, but tongue is right out.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

but the story isn't about the relationships - they're just part of the character's frame of reference when thinking about what is the subject of the fic

Yeah. It does become absurd when any kind of glimmer of romantic relationship makes the story shift to another genre entirely ^^ I suppose that fic was certainly not something to satiate the Ron/Hermione shippers ?
Then again, if a reader was wholly allergic to Ron/Hermione as a ship, would they have enjoyed that fic ?

I'm pondering whether the best solution would be to keep the genre unchanged, but warn about any implied pairing (which lots of people do in slash/het anyway when there's a secondary implied pairing)

I've been guilty of the referring-to-Sirius/Remus-as-if-it's-canon thing before as well
Lots of people are XD
When I first got in this fandom, my memory of canon was hazy and that widespread assumption didn't even make me bat an eyelash. But the more time passes the more I want to beat people with a James-shaped stick. Not that SiriusxJames si my favourite Sirius pairing (hello Blackcest, hello Snack) but at least it takes into account that canonically James, not Remus, was Sirius' most important person.

Definitely, definitely, if there's snogging it isn't gen. Pecks on the cheek yes, but tongue is right out.
That's an adorable definition XD

Reading your fic, now !

[laurus-nobilis.livejournal.com]

The definition of gen is very, very blurry. The best definitions that I've seen are the ones used for the femgenficathon: pure gen, mostly gen and borderline gen (you have to scroll down a little). Not that everyone agrees on that.

I'm the kind of writer/reader that doesn't mind finding couples in a fic labelled "gen" as long as the romance isn't the focus there. I consider most of my Clow-and-Yuuko fics gen, actually, because even if I have the pairing in the back of my mind the stories aren't about romance.

I think it all comes down, in the end, to the definition one is used to. The problem is that sometimes those definitions clash.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

ah, yes cool defs (but I'm feeling very weirded out by the one with which they ban trans people from their fics O_o) though even them think that mariage is the death of romance ^^

Honnestly ? I don't mind either - if the pairing doesn't make me reel. I especially don't mind when I percieve the pairing as canon (which I do with Clow/Yuuko, and which, I admit, is an assumption even if we're working on intended subtext). I most cases it's a non issue, then you all down on the one case that makes you go UUURRRGGGH.

Lot's of ambiguous stuff, I really don't know.

[laurus-nobilis.livejournal.com]

Their definition of "what is female" is... weird. I can tell that it's meant to simplify things, for archiving purposes and the like, but it still doesn't sound right. :/ I like the ideas on 100_women better. (And now I'm off-topic. :P )

I most cases it's a non issue, then you all down on the one case that makes you go UUURRRGGGH.
Ha, yes. My problem is that I just can't define which are the cases that will throw me out of a fic, until I go and find them...

[winter]

I think a purist approach like this might be a bit unrealistic, so to speak ;) After all, in real life people are in relationships, and the bank teller might well be married, your bus driver married and divorced, the girl at the bus stop dating two guys at once. Does that mean your drive to the bank couldn't be described as a gen story? :P

And I think it might be telling that you singled out the slash examples. Gay relationships still "stand out", while mentions of het ones are considered natural.

For me, gen = no focus on romance, and that's how I label my fics. For example my recent Phantom piece does mention Erik's love for Christine, but since the focus is on Erik's mental state, I labeled it gen.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

I think a purist approach like this might be a bit unrealistic, so to speak ;)
mayyyyyyyybe. Okay, you make good points. I'm reconsidering and think people simply ought to warn about secondary and implied pairings in general ^^

And I think it might be telling that you singled out the slash examples. Gay relationships still "stand out", while mentions of het ones are considered natural.
Nope. It's tellling that I singled out the ship that I don't like.
Also, I'm less disturbed about it when the ship is canon, of course in a lot of cases the canonical ships are het. They are exceptions ^^ I'm probably guilty myself of labelling Tokyo Babylon fics gen that explicitly make reference to Subaru loving Seishirou without showcasing their romance. The same thing with SubaruxKamui without any warning would, however, startle me.

[cygna-hime.livejournal.com]

I find your attitude interesting, because it's very nearly the opposite of mine.

In my perspective, gen is the "default" state of a story, and the author must indicate that the story is about romance before I think of it as such. You are gen until proven guilty romantic!

As such, I find stories that mention romantic relationships to be still quite capable of being gen: gehayi has written a number of Regulus stories in which it is mentioned that Sirius and Remus are together. To me, though, since the stories are still about Regulus' and Sirius' fraternal relationship, they are still gen stories.

For me, it boils down to the question: what is the story about? If it's about the romantic relationship between A and B, then it's romance. If it's not, if it's about A alone, or the non-romantic relationship between B and C, then it's gen. Does the summary say, "Ron/Hermione" or, "Harry thinks his friends may be pulling away from him to spend more time with each other"? To me, it makes a difference.

In my personal definition, "borderline gen" stories are stories that focus on a character who is, or two characters who are, in a romantic relationship, and although the relationship is key to the story(you couldn't leave it out), the story is not about the romance, but about the character(s). Example: The death of Regulus, who was Severus' lover, as the final impetus for Severus to switch sides, how and why it affected him that way.

Just my $.02 US.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Interesting point of view !

I see romance as being a specific genre within het or slash. There's lots of slash out there that are staight porn without any romance, or hatesex, or variations that are not romantic. And even if the focus is on the relationship couple isn't about shipping them (Do I make any sense ?)

stories that focus on a character who is, or two characters who are, in a romantic relationship, and although the relationship is key to the story(you couldn't leave it out), the story is not about the romance, but about the character(s).
Okay, that would be what I meant above.

Example: The death of Regulus, who was Severus' lover, as the final impetus for Severus to switch sides, how and why it affected him that way.
Yeah, for me that would still definitly be a slash story. But not a romance one. ^^

Ah categories, and the wonder of splitting hair in four ^^

[kethlenda.livejournal.com]

Interesting question! I know I've seen a lot of "gen" fics where it's just assumed that Harry and Draco are a couple. And between the fact that H/D is a pairing that requires a little backstory to work (seeing as they hate each other) and the fact that it just isn't a pairing I like all that much, it does seem a little jarring.

I agree that canon pairings "feel" different, somehow. I mean, I'm a rarepair writer and hardly anything I write is canon, so I'm not going to argue that one should only write canon pairings! That would be rather silly.

It's just that gen fics seem to be more "linked" to canon somehow--reading them, I expect them to sort of flow from the plot of canon, and it would be silly to leave out, say, James/Lily just because it's a pairing. I mean, James/Lily is integral to the whole series, even if it's not explicit, because otherwise the main character wouldn't exist. Ditto Molly/Arthur.

But if a writer is putting a pairing into the fic that isn't canon, I'm used to seeing it mentioned, and so it's a surprise when it's just there.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Yes, your experience with Harry/Draco is exactly what I meant ! ^^

canon pairing feel also different because they're part of the canonical characterization of the characters. They're part of the basis we're bulding them on, we can't just ignore them in many cases !

Agreeing with you a lot ^^

[kethlenda.livejournal.com]

*nods* That may be why, when reading about non-canonical pairings, I prefer fics that either extricate the character from the canon relationship within the fic (be that by death, breakup, divorce, whatever), or that take place before the canon relationship starts (like I do with my Bella/Romy).

I pimpz0red this discussion on the newsletter tonight, I hope you don't mind. ♥

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

The only thing I don't like about them is plain ignoring the canon relationship. I can work with adultory if it's written as an adultory and works for that character ^^^

Though I really can't stand when Narcissa is seen as a non-entity in LuciusxAnyone fics (and in some Draco fics) grrr

Agreeing otherwise. ^^

Not at all ! Thanks for linking to my post ♥

[spessartine.livejournal.com]

Interesting! It's a subject I'm torn on. I agree that it's distracting to say the least when a non-canon pairing crops up in a genfic. Sirius/Remus is always rearing its head in these things and it annoys the hells out of me. It's presumtion of the most blatant kind, but somehow it's never mentioned because of the popularity of the pairing.

But, having said that I've written genfics with sex in them. Not romance or relationships per se, but if I feel it will tell us something about the character to see them in a sexual situation, I'll put them there. For instance, in White Birds, a Rabastan genfic, Rabastan is depicted as having sex with an unnamed boy, and we also see him raping a muggle woman.

If these characters were named canon characters, would that mean the fic was no longer gen? Perhaps. But I think you can explore the sexual nature of a character without it becoming a NON-genfic. If that makes sense. :D

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

It's presumtion of the most blatant kind, but somehow it's never mentioned because of the popularity of the pairing.
Yeah :( I wouldn't even dislike that ship as much as I do now without that widespread presumption.

But, having said that I've written genfics with sex in them. Not romance or relationships per se, but if I feel it will tell us something about the character to see them in a sexual situation, I'll put them there.
I was certainly not disturbed by it while reading it XD
Mmmm I still think warning might be best approach in that case. I think for rape anyway it's more a question of warning for "non con" than for a specific pairing. OCs as well, people usually want warning for them.

If these characters were named canon characters, would that mean the fic was no longer gen?
Well, probably, yes.

But I think you can explore the sexual nature of a character without it becoming a NON-genfic. If that makes sense. :D
In a way making it all about the character rather than the pairing works for that, but I still think in that case you need to warn your readers about it.

[indigestible.livejournal.com]

What does gen even stand for? I have no idea, but this does not stop me from having an opinion! XD

I think of gen fics as being those that try to approach canon as closely as possible. So if you're writing a gen fic for, I don't know, Pride and Prejudice, it could well be full of romance and kissing and so forth, because that's what the source material is full of. On the other hand, if you include Sirius/Remus in your Harry Potter fic, I'll only think of it as "gen" if it is included with a level of subtlety similar to that of the books, which I suppose is to say that you'll see it if you want to see it.

I phrased that poorly, but I blame exhaustion. x.x

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

I have no idea. Generic I assume ?

I think of gen fics as being those that try to approach canon as closely as possible
I don't think I agree with that definition, it seems a bit cumbersome and may depend a lot about how people read/interprete the source material.

[littledust.livejournal.com]

It might have something to do with writer perceptions of character. If, for example, you see Sirius as gay as a day in May, that's probably how you're going to write him, even if it's a fic about putting the finishing touches on the Map. Little throwaway references to ships in gen have never startled me, but maybe that's all the Remus/Sirius I read. :P And I know that if I ever write Narcissa gen, including a reference to her affairs with women over the years would make perfect sense to me but might shock someone else. It has internal consistency with my fics and my take on her, but not necessarily with canon.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Little throwaway references to ships in gen have never startled me, but maybe that's all the Remus/Sirius I read. :p
Question is, if it was references to another ship than Sirius/Remus would it still leave you cold ?

And I know that if I ever write Narcissa gen, including a reference to her affairs with women over the years would make perfect sense to me but might shock someone else.
Oh ! I agree that when we write them it's the perception of the character that counts. We don't plan out everything.
But once we post it and label it, that's when we need to think about the way readers are going to get into it.
Writer can write anything they way, but it's their responsability to think of the reader before posting.

[littledust.livejournal.com]

Question is, if it was references to another ship than Sirius/Remus would it still leave you cold ?

I'm actually not sure about that, as I don't think I've come across a background mention of a ship I simply cannot stand. I know there's an entire community for H/D without background R/Hr, but as an R/Hr fan, it appearing in Harry/anyone fics never bothered me. I've come across bg references to Blackcest, but that's obviously not a problem. *G* The closest I can think of is bg Remus/Tonks, but I haven't seen much of any Remus gen that also mentions his feelings for her. Probably also due to me not reading a lot of genfic. I lose.

Writer can write anything they way, but it's their responsability to think of the reader before posting.

Hm. Really? One of the few Snape/Lupin fics I've ever enjoyed wasn't labeled. It was by an author I liked, and started off with just Remus, so I settled in for happy reading. When the pairing cropped up, I kept reading, finished the story, and closed the window. (I'm so bad about leaving feedback, sigh.) Is that author irresponsible? I don't think so, and I got to enjoy something I probably would have passed over otherwise, no matter how highly recommended. (I was in not yet in my "I'll try any pairing once!" phase.)

Which isn't quite the same as wanting something just about a character and getting a mention of a pairing you don't like, granted. But "responsibility" seems too strong a word for something as silly as pairings. It makes sense to warn for smut or common squicks, plus it also helps to have something to point to and say, "See! They were warned!" if a parent decides to complain about their 14-year-old's new erotica addiction. Pairings? There are some out there that aren't my cuppa, but I really can't imagine myself e-mailing someone asking them to change their label from gen to [insert pairing here].

[forked.livejournal.com]

In from metafandom, and I'm pretty much the opposite. I love gen, I love long plotty stories, and I'd be quite content to go with a definition of gen that says 'if you take out the romance and there's still a story left, it's gen'.

I don't actually use this definition when I rec fics, because it would keep those who want to read ship fic from finding it. But yea, I prefer a broad definition. If a relationship is in the background of a story, doesn't seem much point in labeling it shipper fic. It's misleading to the folks who are looking for a focus on the pairing. And I'm not too key on the idea folks need to be warned for het/slash/particular pairings. But I'm not big on warnings in general, so that's not surprising.

But yep- lots of differing definitions out there. I've learned to take labels with a big grain of salt.

[forked.livejournal.com]

Hey- looks like I was in from in hogwarts_today! Too many posts to catch up on!

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Interesting. So your definition doesn't work because many people wouldn't go check a gen story ? XD

And I'm not too key on the idea folks need to be warned for het/slash/particular pairings. But I'm not big on warnings in general, so that's not surprising.
Unless the pairing is meant to be a surprise in the story, why not ?
I'm not very big on warnings, but I think some of them have their use. You'll just never make me stick a "character death" warning ^^

I've learned to take labels with a big grain of salt
Well we fen are an anarchic group ^^ there's no actual authority to fix meanings and make rules, so we make do and things vary. It's an interesting experience.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

'if you take out the romance and there's still a story left, it's gen'.


I think that doesn't work for me, because to me there are so many Gen stories that don't have any plot at all. You know like "Lily runs around and picks flowers". Zero content, but zero romantic pairing, hence, Gen.

[caseylane.livejournal.com]

See, I like slash and I like gen. When I get upset is when I'm reading gen and it turns into romantic story of any kind, because, with the gen rating it could be a couple I don't like. At least with slash (or het) you're warned who the couples are.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

that sums up my point of view very well ! :)
thanks for commenting !

[secondsilk.livejournal.com]

I agree the in gen, the distinction between canon and non-canon relationships is more important than in pairing fics themselves. That is to say, a gen-fic-reader can expect something that has no more romance/sex than the story itself. And pairing fics have to sell either the pairing itself, or at least the focus on it.

But this disenfranchises slash pairings, because they are 'never' canon. (At least, there aren't any canon same-sex relationships in HP.) Then it comes down to knowing your authors and knowing how people write.

There is a range of pairings I would be happy read references to in any fic that would not necessarily mark them (include fics focused on other pairings). And there is a list of pairings that make me twitch and which I would like to be prepared for.

The fandom obsession with marking pairings is something that really intrigues me. We expect to be sold on whatever pairing canon throws at us (and sometimes we aren't, but we don't complain about not being told before hand). In fic, though we read specifically to see those characters negotiate that particular element of their relationship. I also like to be warned if the fic is an established relationship for my OTPs, because I prefer first time fics.

If one were going to mark HP for pairings, I think one would only mark the pairings that begin during the course of the books, the pairingss that we see begin explicitely, or that ones that change. One'd mark Bill/Fleur, but not Arthur/Molly and not Lucius/Narcissa. So, canon v non-canon is an issue for marking in fics, and so is established v non-established.

I think, if a fic does not follow a change or development in a romantic or sexual relationship, then the author is unlikely to mark it (depending on how close one gets to having a sex scene and whether the pairing influences the plot), regardless of how removed from canon possibility of the pairing is. Afterall, the author probably assumed it, perhaps forgot that it was there or that other readers may not be able to imagine those characters together at all.

The line between gen and not-gen is a question of 'at what point of description do have to mention a pairing?' even in a fic that it obviously not-gen, but about a different pairing. And I don't really know the answer to that question. But it has to do with attracting as many readers as possible, without misleading any of them.

[lunajadebaggins.livejournal.com]

Very interesting discussioln.

I prefer to label stories first by their relationship with canon (Compliant, rendered AU by new canon in the course of writing, deliberate AU, or crossover), then by genre (action/adventure, mystery, etc), and only then by pairing.

As it has been pointed out, het, slash, and gen are not mutually exclusive (at least het and slash aren't). For instance, I'm writing an AU 7th year HP fic focusing primarily (as it should) on the fight against Voldemort, but including a number of relationships, both slash and het. And these romances are not incidental to the plot. So what should I label it?

I consider romance a part of life, and a story without any (unless it's about young children) seems unnatural to me. I'm pretty liberal as far drawing a line is concerned--in most cases, a plot neither focused on nor driven by romance qualifies the story as gen for me, regardless of what romance occurs within.

Since I don't really label my stories as het, slash or gen, this is a theoretical problem for me. I don't like these labels because they confuse the issue rather than clarify it--which is what labels are for, since the main question, when reading them, is, 'Do I want to read the story?' To use some personal examples, a label 'LOTR/Stargate crossover' or 'H/Hr' immediately answers that question for me: no, I don't. A label 'slash' tells me nothing. It could be an interesting fic with Remus/Sirius, covering the first Voldemort war, which I might be interested in, or it might a mount of Ron/Draco porn, which I won't.

I use 'slash' as a warning in my stories rather than a label, i.e. 'this story contains slash'. Even then, I don't always put it there. And since I've never written purely romantic stories, I don't see anything wrong with that.

[archon-mentha.livejournal.com]

I think a lot of the comments to this have already touched on my reaction...

This is your definition - your preferred definition of genfic. And your personal dislike. My reaction - if a fic is gen, if the romances are in the background, it never bothers me, no matter what the pairing, even if it is one I dislike.

Other things do, though. :)

As to the difference between gen and slash/het/femmeslash - to me, slash, het and femmeslash are all subdivisions of the Romance genre, and gen is everything else. Which, if you think about it, covers quite a lot. I don't think gen does or should mean strict adherence to canon, in relationships or anything else. That's just far too subjective.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

That's interesting. I guess I react so strongly to this because pairings (specific pairings I don't like at least) is one of the very few things that squick me.

The whole question of the Romance as including or withing het/slash/femslash is an interesting one. I don't much like truely romantic stories so for me it's a subgenre of het/slash/femslash. But that's hardly an objective rule.

I don't think gen means strict adherance to canon at all. I even said so somewhere in these comments.