Character Hatred : Why ?
21 Aug 2004 08:50 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
salineaSo I was wondering about character bashing, why I hated it and why it was so popular in most fandom and thought would ask you guys what you think about it.
I think I've always hated characters bashing. Mostly, it's the reductionnism of it. The easy simplification of things. And also the fact that if a character in cannon is really as simple and as hate-worthy as that, then why would I waste such strong feeling of such a scum - especially a fictionnal scum ?
But it's got probably more to it. I mean, I can think of a few characters I've really hated in fictions, not many, but some. Stannis Baratheon is the one the most worthy to be mentionned. Now I know why I hate him : he's a self-righteous hypocrite. There's many more characters who did worse deeds in this serie (As song of ice and fire by GRR Martin in case you wonder) than Stannis. However, Stannis is one of the worse characters who actually claim moral backing for his action. Worse, he claims that what he did was done out of a desire for justice and were pretty selfless. At least guys like Tywin Lannister, Roose Bolton or Petyr Baelish "Littlefinger" don't pretend they're doing the right thing. And other characters who are just scums like Gregor Clegane, Ramsay Bolton or Vargo Hoat don't deserve hatred because they just don't matter that much (they hurt plenty of characters I adore deeply - that's not the point - their personnality in the book do not matter enough for me to hate them.)
Anyway, if I go back to Stannis Baratheon, and even if sometimes I want to rant about him (not recently, but when I was still very involved in that peculiar fandom), I have to admit he's a /good/ character. That is; no matter how much I hate him, I don't want his presence to be erased from the book. The fact I hate him so much is proof he's a good villain. He's still a believable character as well, with his own story and his own point of view on the story - I just can't be sympathetic to his (and I can usually be sympathetic to most point of view in a story !)
So this is a case of character hatred that actually reflects favourable over the author and the whole story.
However, when bashing a character, most fans will do so by implying it's a badly constructed character, one they would want out of the story (and will write out in fanfictions), one that is too much of a Mary Sue or other cases like that. Most of the time the worst I can manage about a character that I don't like is mildly disinterrested going on bored. So, this character isn't interrested, and just doesn't do it for me... so what ? *shrugs* *proceeds to ignore said character* ... is that why some character are bashed and hated with such a passion ? I guess it can happen when said character is the main one of the story. Heros can be such so damned hard to love. They're not as loveable as the villains or the second characters, not as special, not as sympatheticaly flawed, not as ambiguous. When they /are/ ambiguous they get bashed for any breach of behaviour because they're the hero and they have no right to whine, or be slutty, or whatever. I've certainly seen characters like Buffy, or even Kamui in my lattest fandom be bashed for these reasons. Now, I'm partially guilty of that in that, I seldom get entranced by the main character too. I often held a minor dislike for Buffy, Kamui just puzzles me too much for me identify with him, I never really liked Mal in Firefly, or Angel in AtS, and the most similar character I could think from ASOIAF is Jon Snow, though finding a main character in that serie is a wasted case (I think lots of people feel like that about Daenarys too, but I've always loved that girl ^_^) and I certainly don't appreciate him too much either. But thought I've found them bland and was sometimes irritated at them, I don't like seeing them bashed, so I don't think I could say I /hate/ those characters. Buffy, for one, was a character I started to love more when she was being the most mean to one of my favourite character (*cough*Spike*cough*) because I like non-perfect!Buffy - at least a specific kind of non perfect which I could, I guess, for once identify with.
Of course the fact we're going to lash out, as whole, much more against the heros and main characters in a tale can be disturbing sometimes. I mean, for one, if they're the characters we're supposed to identify with that means we're bashing against /ourselves/ (and here I think about the way some fangirls will thoroughly bash any female character they feel like gets in the way of the True Love of two male characters they want to slash... and all the potential misogyny undertone i get from it). Or maybe that's why we don't like 'em. Maybe it's because the main characters uphold virtues that are so annoyingly mainstream and in accordance with the Establishment etc. that we are made supposed to uphold but are really not that... deep, or well thought out, or very very prejudiced to all the minorities that we geeks often belong to or identify with... then wouldn't it be natural that we'd come to hate, and bash, the main character ?
I have, however, a hard time seeing Kamui, or Jon Snow, a representant of the System sets of values . For obvious reasons (for one, they're both bastards in societies that look sideways at those). As for Buffy, as EVERY characters in the Scooby Gang, she was always meant to stand for the Other, or at least one kind of flavour thereof. So even if that explanation work for some fandom (say Smallville, and maybe I shouldn't say that because I never watched enough Smallville to know it well), it can't explain it for all.
The versus question of this of course is, why do we often love the villain so much ? Because, hell, we DO ! A good villain often makes the tale in lots of Genre stories, not only because it all adds to the tale (as the fact Stannis Baratheon being a believable villain adds to ASOIAF for me), but also in the fact that he will have a strong following and will often be cheered at and admired. Okay, sometimes, it's not really a villain-villain, sometimes it's an anti-hero. But Spike's following didn't start with S4's greying, they started back in Season 2. Neither Seishirou nor Fuuma have this excuse (as ambiguous as is X)... and even thought I love Littlefinger to boots (can't hate such a clever, clever man, his smarts got me on my knees, it's visceral), he really has no excuses for what he did (or the scale ! God, the scale of what he did...)
So what ? Do we love those characters because they do things that, really, we wish we had the guts or the freedom to do ? (damn those pesky super-ego) Because they stand for, again, the minorities (of whatever sort, really), that we identify with ?
Hum, I'm getting sidetracked from my original question
Then, there are the villains that we are definitly not meant to admire, not even from her brains and evil-plotting-capacities. The snivelling, cowardly bastards. The ones who do the most shameful acts for petty reasons (and isn't it strange that we will condemn more strongly the character who commits rape than the one who commits murder ?) Are those the characters who gather the most bashing then ? Frankly, I always had the impression those characters passed under the radar of most people. It's so obvious we're supposed to hate those characters, that... why bother stating it ? Hum, actually, there's some instance when it's those kind of characters I really hate. I'm thinking of Regal from Robin Hobb's Farseer serie, for exemple. A character who really had nothing for him. Not only is he petty, cruel, greedy and vindicative, but he isn't even worthy of any admiration for his capacities. Basically he's a crybaby that was only able to harm so much all of the main characters because he was in position of power and others helped him for their own reason. I hate Regal, not as a character, but as a construct of the author. This is a serie of book I mostly like, but the fact the main villain is such a sham of a character is a big flaw for me. I want a villain that is more than that, that has at least /some/ redemptive qualities. I can't hate for real a character who is so plagued with defaults it makes me feel like the authors is ordering me to hate him now damnit !
Sometimes, it's the most snivelling, pathetic, flaw ridden character in a book I want to like, because I've got a big spirit of contradiction ;)
Now, there are other characters who are not villains, but who are similarly plagued with lots of demeaning flaws and you can't help but think they are so depicted so as to make that other character, next to them, look better. That's why I point blank refused to hate Sansa when we met her in book 1 of ASOIAF. I'd love Arya anyway, but I didn't need to see Sansa in such a bad light to do so. And I was glad to see how much her character was used better in the following book (I know lots of people still hate her anyway... poor Sansa ^_^) However, that might not be the best case of exemple, mostly because GRRMartin is, on the whole, a better writer than that, and those kind of characters are mostly seen in the hand of not-so-good authors.
Anyway, i've been rambling on for too long. What do you think of the question ? Have you ever really hated a character in one of your fandom, and why ? Do you hate the character but still admit they add up to the story because of it, or, on contrary, is your hatred of the character detracting from your appreciation ? Is it another kind of case ? Is there a specific kind of character you usually hate / bash ?
I think I've always hated characters bashing. Mostly, it's the reductionnism of it. The easy simplification of things. And also the fact that if a character in cannon is really as simple and as hate-worthy as that, then why would I waste such strong feeling of such a scum - especially a fictionnal scum ?
But it's got probably more to it. I mean, I can think of a few characters I've really hated in fictions, not many, but some. Stannis Baratheon is the one the most worthy to be mentionned. Now I know why I hate him : he's a self-righteous hypocrite. There's many more characters who did worse deeds in this serie (As song of ice and fire by GRR Martin in case you wonder) than Stannis. However, Stannis is one of the worse characters who actually claim moral backing for his action. Worse, he claims that what he did was done out of a desire for justice and were pretty selfless. At least guys like Tywin Lannister, Roose Bolton or Petyr Baelish "Littlefinger" don't pretend they're doing the right thing. And other characters who are just scums like Gregor Clegane, Ramsay Bolton or Vargo Hoat don't deserve hatred because they just don't matter that much (they hurt plenty of characters I adore deeply - that's not the point - their personnality in the book do not matter enough for me to hate them.)
Anyway, if I go back to Stannis Baratheon, and even if sometimes I want to rant about him (not recently, but when I was still very involved in that peculiar fandom), I have to admit he's a /good/ character. That is; no matter how much I hate him, I don't want his presence to be erased from the book. The fact I hate him so much is proof he's a good villain. He's still a believable character as well, with his own story and his own point of view on the story - I just can't be sympathetic to his (and I can usually be sympathetic to most point of view in a story !)
So this is a case of character hatred that actually reflects favourable over the author and the whole story.
However, when bashing a character, most fans will do so by implying it's a badly constructed character, one they would want out of the story (and will write out in fanfictions), one that is too much of a Mary Sue or other cases like that. Most of the time the worst I can manage about a character that I don't like is mildly disinterrested going on bored. So, this character isn't interrested, and just doesn't do it for me... so what ? *shrugs* *proceeds to ignore said character* ... is that why some character are bashed and hated with such a passion ? I guess it can happen when said character is the main one of the story. Heros can be such so damned hard to love. They're not as loveable as the villains or the second characters, not as special, not as sympatheticaly flawed, not as ambiguous. When they /are/ ambiguous they get bashed for any breach of behaviour because they're the hero and they have no right to whine, or be slutty, or whatever. I've certainly seen characters like Buffy, or even Kamui in my lattest fandom be bashed for these reasons. Now, I'm partially guilty of that in that, I seldom get entranced by the main character too. I often held a minor dislike for Buffy, Kamui just puzzles me too much for me identify with him, I never really liked Mal in Firefly, or Angel in AtS, and the most similar character I could think from ASOIAF is Jon Snow, though finding a main character in that serie is a wasted case (I think lots of people feel like that about Daenarys too, but I've always loved that girl ^_^) and I certainly don't appreciate him too much either. But thought I've found them bland and was sometimes irritated at them, I don't like seeing them bashed, so I don't think I could say I /hate/ those characters. Buffy, for one, was a character I started to love more when she was being the most mean to one of my favourite character (*cough*Spike*cough*) because I like non-perfect!Buffy - at least a specific kind of non perfect which I could, I guess, for once identify with.
Of course the fact we're going to lash out, as whole, much more against the heros and main characters in a tale can be disturbing sometimes. I mean, for one, if they're the characters we're supposed to identify with that means we're bashing against /ourselves/ (and here I think about the way some fangirls will thoroughly bash any female character they feel like gets in the way of the True Love of two male characters they want to slash... and all the potential misogyny undertone i get from it). Or maybe that's why we don't like 'em. Maybe it's because the main characters uphold virtues that are so annoyingly mainstream and in accordance with the Establishment etc. that we are made supposed to uphold but are really not that... deep, or well thought out, or very very prejudiced to all the minorities that we geeks often belong to or identify with... then wouldn't it be natural that we'd come to hate, and bash, the main character ?
I have, however, a hard time seeing Kamui, or Jon Snow, a representant of the System sets of values . For obvious reasons (for one, they're both bastards in societies that look sideways at those). As for Buffy, as EVERY characters in the Scooby Gang, she was always meant to stand for the Other, or at least one kind of flavour thereof. So even if that explanation work for some fandom (say Smallville, and maybe I shouldn't say that because I never watched enough Smallville to know it well), it can't explain it for all.
The versus question of this of course is, why do we often love the villain so much ? Because, hell, we DO ! A good villain often makes the tale in lots of Genre stories, not only because it all adds to the tale (as the fact Stannis Baratheon being a believable villain adds to ASOIAF for me), but also in the fact that he will have a strong following and will often be cheered at and admired. Okay, sometimes, it's not really a villain-villain, sometimes it's an anti-hero. But Spike's following didn't start with S4's greying, they started back in Season 2. Neither Seishirou nor Fuuma have this excuse (as ambiguous as is X)... and even thought I love Littlefinger to boots (can't hate such a clever, clever man, his smarts got me on my knees, it's visceral), he really has no excuses for what he did (or the scale ! God, the scale of what he did...)
So what ? Do we love those characters because they do things that, really, we wish we had the guts or the freedom to do ? (damn those pesky super-ego) Because they stand for, again, the minorities (of whatever sort, really), that we identify with ?
Hum, I'm getting sidetracked from my original question
Then, there are the villains that we are definitly not meant to admire, not even from her brains and evil-plotting-capacities. The snivelling, cowardly bastards. The ones who do the most shameful acts for petty reasons (and isn't it strange that we will condemn more strongly the character who commits rape than the one who commits murder ?) Are those the characters who gather the most bashing then ? Frankly, I always had the impression those characters passed under the radar of most people. It's so obvious we're supposed to hate those characters, that... why bother stating it ? Hum, actually, there's some instance when it's those kind of characters I really hate. I'm thinking of Regal from Robin Hobb's Farseer serie, for exemple. A character who really had nothing for him. Not only is he petty, cruel, greedy and vindicative, but he isn't even worthy of any admiration for his capacities. Basically he's a crybaby that was only able to harm so much all of the main characters because he was in position of power and others helped him for their own reason. I hate Regal, not as a character, but as a construct of the author. This is a serie of book I mostly like, but the fact the main villain is such a sham of a character is a big flaw for me. I want a villain that is more than that, that has at least /some/ redemptive qualities. I can't hate for real a character who is so plagued with defaults it makes me feel like the authors is ordering me to hate him now damnit !
Sometimes, it's the most snivelling, pathetic, flaw ridden character in a book I want to like, because I've got a big spirit of contradiction ;)
Now, there are other characters who are not villains, but who are similarly plagued with lots of demeaning flaws and you can't help but think they are so depicted so as to make that other character, next to them, look better. That's why I point blank refused to hate Sansa when we met her in book 1 of ASOIAF. I'd love Arya anyway, but I didn't need to see Sansa in such a bad light to do so. And I was glad to see how much her character was used better in the following book (I know lots of people still hate her anyway... poor Sansa ^_^) However, that might not be the best case of exemple, mostly because GRRMartin is, on the whole, a better writer than that, and those kind of characters are mostly seen in the hand of not-so-good authors.
Anyway, i've been rambling on for too long. What do you think of the question ? Have you ever really hated a character in one of your fandom, and why ? Do you hate the character but still admit they add up to the story because of it, or, on contrary, is your hatred of the character detracting from your appreciation ? Is it another kind of case ? Is there a specific kind of character you usually hate / bash ?
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Date: 21 August 2004 01:53 pm (UTC)I hate heroes who aren't heroic but don't get called on it, side characters who are pieces of cardboard, and villains who aren't good at it. I want my bad guys COMPETANT! And that means you, Generic Fantasy Badguy #586! (One of my favorite things about CLAMP is that the villains have reasons other than 'because the plot says I'm evil, that's why' for what they do. Maybe not good reasons, but reasons.)
If I go on, I'll end up on a very very long characterization rant. So I won't.
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Date: 21 August 2004 03:58 pm (UTC)That's one reason why I *HATE* Robert Jordan. :p I don't really, but alot of other people "hate" Robert Jordan. I just think he's stupid but there's no "We think Robert Jordan is stupid" club, is there?
Also, teh intarweb makes people really stupid sometimes. http://files.redvsblue.com/2xPSAE3/RvB_BungieFest04_LoRes.zip
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Date: 22 August 2004 09:13 am (UTC)I think there is...it's called the fantasy elitists. It's highly unofficial.
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Date: 22 August 2004 10:15 am (UTC)and the braid tugging! GAWDS! :O
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Date: 22 August 2004 10:28 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 22 August 2004 07:14 pm (UTC)::shudders:: I think Sartre may have misjudged hell- Hell is bad writers.
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Date: 23 August 2004 10:45 am (UTC)MANY people think Jordan is stupid, not only fantasy elitists... thought I'm not part of those who have a strong hatred for the man, or the books, but then I was never a fan of them either. (Most people I know who are the most virulent against him are people who were disapointed by the latter books)
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Date: 22 August 2004 08:07 am (UTC)totally agreeing on cardboard villain, I hate those.
Thanks for your answer ^_^
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Date: 21 August 2004 05:30 pm (UTC)1. Aeris "Final Fantasy VII"- because, christ, she's a pain in the ass.
2. Rinoa "Final Fantasy VIII"- ditto
3. Relena "Gundam Wing"- deserves death for never shutting her trap
4. Aeka (sp?) "Tenshi" series- annoying and clingy
But, I think the reason that I have to truly dislike these characters is because I tend to like the hero so much, that for them to sink to the level of such irritating women annoys me. Also, in the case of a couple of them, I'd much rather they were with someone else. But-- I know that's not the driving reason, because I can deal with couples I don't like, as long as the characters aren't obnoxious.
As per character bashing, I will only do so in this sort of forum-- I never bash a character while discussing them (ie-- I would not bash Kamui while discussing Subaru/Kamui), or when writing a story, but I think it's perfectly fine otherwise-- when talking about characters you dislike.
And, the thing about the characters that you dislike so much that you feel the need to actually bash, is that they don't tend to do anything in particular that offends you, but they just rub you the wrong way. *shrugs*
I really don't have anything useful to contribute.
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Date: 22 August 2004 08:04 am (UTC)hum the only one of those girls I know is Aeris and though she was sometimes a little bit... errr girly, she never really annoyed it.
Yeah, not bashing a character in fic or topic of discussion, seems fair... though sometimes we just need to vent ^^
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Date: 21 August 2004 05:33 pm (UTC)That particular breed of hated character is less common outside of television/movies, but in books there are often these characters that either feel like avatars for the author [if I read another novel about a novelist, I may scream] or for which the author has a very obvious hard on. When the author is working too hard to make you like the character, the reaction is often the opposite.
Mmm, I'm rambling and I'm not sure this is what you were asking anyway. ^^ Sorry.
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Date: 22 August 2004 07:58 am (UTC)I'm not familiar with any kind of Star Treck, but I see the kind :/
Characters who are just not let be themselves, or who are surrunded by heavy neon signs screaming : "Like me now ! Am I not cute and lovable !" meh. Sometimes I'm glad for the fanfic milieu to have make up the word "Mary Sue" so we can point at them and laugh ^^
*thinks*
Date: 22 August 2004 09:11 am (UTC)I have disliked characters in the past but most of the time, I've found that I hated the FANDOMS for the characters rather than the characters themselves. For example, I liked both Aeris and Tifa, maybe Aeris a little more but when I was talking to a (former) friend of mine, she really had the nerve to just blurt out that Aeris was a slut without any reason besides the fact that 'she stole Cloud from Tifa', which really isn't true since Cloud had slipped away from Tifa when she had the chance. I just thought that was uncalled for because I didn't do anything to make her say that and so... this was around the time when I was very immature and we had a little dispute over who really was the slut. Yeah... when I look back on it, I'm very embarrassed.
But I think most character bashing revolves the love lives of characters or the way that a character acts towards another. For example, I really don't like how Tohma (from Gravitation) is always all over Yuki because well, I support Yuki and Shuichi! I guess the same goes for Final Fantasy VII, the whole Tifa and Aeris bit. I don't really care who Cloud ends up with. I like Aeris and Tifa equally now. Why? Because I think they're both awesome. It's only MY opinion though and I don't want anyone to bash EITHER one of them.
The saddest thing of all is when I have to look over at
Sometimes I find myself just disliking the character in series that either attracts all the guys, is just too perfect to be human or is just always almost raped. But in most cases, you'll find those kinds of characters in Watase Yuu's works and now you know why I don't read much of her stuff anymore. Not only are her heroines so... naive, but there is ALWAYS a love triangle that revolves around her and that is what makes her stories so cliche.
Everyone is entitled to say what they like but I just think the whole "I HATE _____" is unnecessary. It hurts other people's feelings and they have to realize that not EVERYONE agrees with you. If they did... well... I don't know WHAT would happen.
I just wish people would state their opinions with a reasonable explanation rather than screaming it from the top of their lungs so that everyone in the world will grab their fandom-defending pitchforks and want to stab that person to death. .__.
Re: *thinks*
Date: 22 August 2004 10:36 am (UTC)Watase Yuu, the first manga I read of her was Ayashi no Ceres and I thought she was good, then i got to other stuff and it's always the same things *bored* It's disapointing. Not only the triangle, or the fact every. single. male. character is in love/lust with her, but really the themes and everything keep repeating themselves. Too bad, I really liked Ayashi No Ceres.
Hating a character because you think they could stand between your favourite pairing, that can be very petty. But sometimes, when a serie is still on going , I understand how the pressure for seeing it happen can make you feel like that. But a well drawn triangle story can be so fun ^^ One of the thing I hate is the Ex bashing. Like wanting to erase a character love story from the background of a character will make any new romance more True Luv. You know the style, SxKer that need to bash Seishirou to get their pairing to work, bashers of Kaho or of Drusilla. It's one of the type of character bashing that i get tired of very fast.
Anyway, thanks for your answer ^^
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Date: 22 August 2004 12:12 pm (UTC)Is there a specific kind of character you usually hate / bash ?
I usually say how much I can't stand Kamui. He doesn't do much of anything but angst, has those around him pity him, is tortured by Fuuma and crush over Subaru, being his extra appendage. For 18 volumes, you'd think he would have done something by now. He's important to the story, of course, but he really lacks. As far as bashing, I might get a little upset as I try to explain why Subaru and Kamui would never work, and would never happen. *laughs* But that's only around my close friends.. XD;;;;;;;
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Date: 23 August 2004 10:50 am (UTC)Yeah, Kamui can be rather... limp. But then he did have a lot of shit thrust upon him and awful lot of people die on him, so in my book that does give him so leave. And he showed he had a spine before, so I'm still hoping... but yeah sometimes he gets me very frustrated ^^ (fanon portrayal, though, is often worse and makes him a bigger weepy uke than he is)
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Date: 22 August 2004 07:48 pm (UTC)Personally, I find the simple 'love me' heroes and 'hate me' villains repulsive. Which, in many ways, is why I started reading fanfiction at all- I like fics that give pointless stupid characters more depth- or, lacking that, a nice gruesome death. If I picked up the Harry potter books today, I would be disgusted- the only reason I even care about them at all now is because of some really good fanfiction. And Remus/Sirius slash, but that's another topic entirely. XDXD
More then anything, though, sometimes I wonder if the reason people feel the need to vehemently bash a character is because they see the character as the embodiment of everything they dislike about themselves. And I pretty much keep that in mind whenever I feel a strong dislike for a character- if I dislike them because they're merely pointless or annoying, why get riled up? Why is it so personal?
And I think, in a way, that is the difference between bashing a character and merely expressing your opinion about them. People can't explain why a character so strongly disagrees with them, because to do so would be to admit that they themselves have the problem. Proclaiming how much they hate and despise the character in public is their way of trying to reassure themselves that they are nothing like the character at all, and in a way let everyone know that too.
::shrugs:: That's my guess, anyway. ::glomps Sakuraragi:: Sorry if I worked off your statement too much, but it made me think about that, so... aheh. ::hides:: And I'm also very sorry to everyone if that made no sense.
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Date: 22 August 2004 07:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 23 August 2004 10:58 am (UTC)hum :) that's an interesting point and one worth looking into. I guess often when we get to really /hate/ a character it's got to do with our personnal background, we're projecting into him things that happened in our past. Could be something about ourselves, or could be that they remind us of people all too real in our lives who hurt us. (I have a friend on my flist who rant against one character especially in Buffy and knows perfectly it's because he reminds her of someone who wronged her)
Anyway, very interesting post, thank you for answering ^^
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Date: 30 August 2004 03:54 am (UTC)About Sansa and all...
Date: 23 August 2004 03:48 am (UTC)I think we can divide stuff into two parts - characters one hates, because of the personlity the author put in them; and characters one hates because the reader considers that such characters are somehow cheating on the author´s part. The first example is nothing wrong writing wise, it is good and interesting, and somehow even people like Stannis got their fans and people who love them. Including Sansa ;) And a lot of books I love can be written from the PoV of people I do not like, but they can be so fun to read about, say Lolita, or O Conde de Abranhos, or Wasp Factory, or Waugh´s books about Basil Seal.
Second group is the Mary Sue, authorial projection, bad writing part. A problem is I think people might dislike characters well defined enough fitting the first section and trying to pass off their dislike as this section two, putting the blame not on them but on the author? Yep, consider my theories above on Sansa ;)
Re: About Sansa and all...
Date: 23 August 2004 11:11 am (UTC)I do think she was drawn as a much more sympathetic figure in those books than in the first ones. First, would it be only because of the amount of abuse she takes, second because they do show the qualities that were only hinted at in the first book : her empathy, the way she uses her courtly manners as a spine / armor, the fact that even if she's very naive she's not stupid.
Frankly I thought that the Arya / Sansa dynamic in the first book was downward unfair to Sansa in that it put Arya too easily in the better light. That's also nuanced in latter book for Arya, and without betraying her character. You have a point about the slowness of the action, but I do think we see Sansa learning things progressively. But she /is/ powerless lots of time, and she doesn't have much choice in who to trust. Arya lack of trust in anyone in her escapade didn't really help her much more, either. She was as much carried away right and left depending on the whims of others.
I think we can divide stuff into two parts - characters one hates, because of the personlity the author put in them; and characters one hates because the reader considers that such characters are somehow cheating on the author´s part.
I agree. that's why I was wondering who the people usually hated the most / were prone to bash the most. So far the answers are hinting are the ones who are badly written by the writer.
Yep, consider my theories above on Sansa ;)
lol
But should a writer always make all characters likeable in some way (even as a good villain), after all isn't reality full of people who are /really/ that shallow, uninterresting, and despisable ? (that's a purely argumentative question by the way ^^)
Re: About Sansa and all...
Date: 25 August 2004 07:07 am (UTC)Perhaps, but the stuff I like in Sansa is already there from the start, the kindness, though not directly applied to her little sister, but then again sister-things are weird. I remain unconvinced by Sansa´s behaviour afterwards, I am undecided if it is totally believeable or not. I am not too concerned about likeabilitiy, Sansa can have that, it is just that driving me mad with stupidity can also be there at the same time as I wish her happy things and babies and puppies.
But should a writer always make all characters likeable in some way (even as a good villain), after all isn't reality full of people who are /really/ that shallow, uninterresting, and despisable ? (that's a purely argumentative question by the way ^^)
Everybody is the hero of their own story, no? Or the anti-hero at least ;) I think the key there is for the author to be aware of the despisable or shallow characteristics and use plot and dialogue and what he or she can to make the reading about that character interesting. Peeking into somebody´s mind is interesting, even if that person is shallow or interesting for most part, but I guess author has got to be aware of how readers can perceive characters in different ways. I think some of the most annoying books I read were chick lit written very shallowly where the author seems unware how despicable uninteresting and shallow the character the author is writing about is. BTW have you ever read Ruth Rendell? She is pretty astounding at that, at making a compelling story about unlikeable people and make them human and complete, it is just that she gives the characters the completeness that leads to a sort of dignity that it is beyond the reader or author liking such people.
Messy post, sorry, but a messy theme. It is pretty fascinating because it ties to how we read and why we read, do we want to peek into other people s souls, or do we want to be the people we are reading about?