Yet another post about the whole gen issue

[salinea]

(See the last 2 or 3 metafandom editions if you wonder what i'm talking about)

The more I think about, the more I think that the categories of het, slash and gen, as categories, are mostly useless. In fact, I never actually included them in any fic I've posted myself (the information is usually contained in the "Characters/Pairings" line).

If we want categies denoting genres/focus, "Romance", "Drama", "Action/Adventure", "Character exploration", "Smut", etc. make much better descriptors, as well as some kind of descriptions about how the story stands vis-a-vis to canon (A/U, post-canon, missing scenes, just-like-a-canon-episode, retcon/canon-fix...)

I also think the issue is that we're thinking of these categories as mutually exclusive. What is gen cannot be het, what is het cannot be slash, what is slash cannot be gen. Which is bollocks. There's nothing saying a story couldn't focus on both a canon-like-plot and a non-canon Romance! Nor is there anything saying that a story can't be focussed on two couples, one het, one slash.

But yeah, people want to be warned against the pairings they dislike, in every cases, so warning for pairings all the time should be the best behaviour.

ETA : Okay, so non-exhaustive list of genres I can think of right now

- Romance / Smut (probably handier to merge them)
- Plot driven stories (with subcategories for things like action/adventure, mystery/investigation, war-stories, intrigue, Sci-fi...)
- Noromo relationships (a fic which focus on a relationship which is not explored as romantic, whether it's family, friends, partners, colleagues or people who hate each others)
- Character study (any fic which is about exploring a character's personnality, or their reaction to something)
- Comedy / Humour (need I specify?)
- World exploration (for fics that want to expand that little obscure corner of canon)
- Surrealism / Fairy Tale / Dreamscape (because I'm not sure where else this kind of stories fit)

any suggestions/criticisms?

Comments

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

The more I think about, the more I think that the categories of het, slash and gen, as categories, are mostly useless. ...If we want categies denoting genres/focus, "Romance", "Drama", "Action/Adventure", "Character exploration", "Smut", etc. make much better descriptors

Thank god the fan fic community is starting to realize that. I don't use any of the common terminology because it is so completely non-descriptive of anything I do.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's really a counter intuitive terminology I think.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

It's based on the assumption that 90% of all fan fic is either erotica or romance, with other plot developments being secondary to the pairings in those stories. The other 10% is presumably "every thing else", which gets lumped together, regardless of how much variety is part of "everything else."

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

But lots of stories are plot focusses and pairing focussed! and lots of people love these stories too, that's part of the problem ^^ and yeah, the Gen is the big all lumped together category which makes seeking stuff in it not easy and makes it even smaller i think.

[summerborn.livejournal.com]

I agree with you 100%. I use "genfic" occasionally to describe a fic without a romantic pairing, but I much prefer to know if a story I'm about to read is comedy, adventure, mystery, what. And no one uses those except fanfiction.net. :\

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

I think the only time I use it is when I want to rec a gen piece and tell as much... but yeah, we need to come up with good, exhaustive categories for gen which will be more precise, because as such? Nobody's sure what "gen" means and besides it's just too broad.

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

I don't actually see many stories labeled as gen except on recs pages. Things like "X/Y" and "implied R/Q" and "H/G UST" and "mentioned A/B" give more information about pairing or lack thereof, IMO, and the modifiers let the reader know how much role the pairing will play in the story. I would love to see more romance/drama/etc. labels on stories, though, especially in fandoms where I'm really seeking plot.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Yeah I guess rec pages, newsletters and archives are the people who actually use these categories. I'm a big fan of the "implied" "background" "if you squint" "UST" modifiers myself! I'm glad to see I'm not alone ^^

I almost never actively seek gen though I love it because finding the things I like tends to be so difficult. Everything is lumped together even though it can be very different kind of stories! So I think it would help that as well.

[(Anonymous)]

Which means different things to different people, so unless I know for sure what kind of stuff that author writes, it's useless.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

I wasn't aware there were such confusion about the meanings of "implied", "background", "UST" or "if you squint". How many different definitions of each do you know?

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

Are you referring to pairing modifiers or to "gen" (which...well, fandom obviously doesn't agree on)? I don't see how pairing modifiers (and most of those are pretty unambiguous--UST is sexual tension that isn't satisfied; unrequited is unrequited, etc.) are any MORE ambiguous than slash/het/gen, which everyone in fandom is arguing about right now.

[mnemosyne-1.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, I like your labels much better. I do think that it is somewhat important to let people know what's contained in your story - I'm a fan of listing the pairings, any warnings and I love Author's Notes when a fic is especially long and intricate.

I admit I eventually stopped reading the Gen definition wars because it seems like everyone has a slightly different take on what it should be. I think the solution is definitely to have detailed header information (title, author, rating, word count, pairings/characters, warnings, summary - which should reveal genre - and author's notes). It seems like a lot of information, but personally, I'm a lot more likely to click on a story when I know pretty much what I'm getting into.

I also try to do the same thing in the stories that I write, and I don't think it spoils the story to have an FYI at the beginning as to the general basis of the story.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

listing pairings AND/OR all main characters should be mandatory, really. That the most important thing about a fic IMO. A/N are nifty but the can tell, well, anything ^^ I mean nothing specify what should be in A/N.

The Gen explosion really shows that the issue isn't clear in people's mind, which shows it's not that good a descriptor ^^

I also hate when people don't include word count! I like to know if a fic is a novella or a drabble before i start reading it ^^; especiall when it's a novella.

I admit that the trouble with my "genre" is that they're not always easy to define. For exemple I remember a "gen" fic by klynie1 which centers around Remus' first month in Hogwarts and his interraction with the Marauders. No pairing, of course. It's not really plot heavy and can't be defined as action or adventure or mystery. How would anyone tag it? character/friendship study? Of course in this case the summary is a good indicator of what's the fic's about, but if we want a label it's not always easy.

The only warnign I thing spoil stuff are character death warnings!! XD

[mnemosyne-1.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I just like A/N in general - not that they tell lots of stuff necessarily, but I love reading about where authors get ideas or how they have to explain something in an AU setting...

And word count not being included always gets me! I know how long I have to read at a given time - sometimes I only have time for a ficlet, sometimes a fic, and sometimes I have all weekend to read a novella/novel. I hate starting something and not be able to finish it b/c I didn't know how long it was!

I think I'd characterize the fic you mentioned simply as character-centric - and there the summary will play a big role in telling you what kind of a fic it is.

Also, I don't think with any kind of fic that just one label will always fit, especially with longer fics. You can have romantic comedy, romantic action, comedic action, dramedy... just one label isn't going to fit necessarily.

I have to say that I do like to be warned when the main characters are going to die - that way I can prepare myself. *g* But that's just me. I've seen people do the warnings where, if you want to know, you have to highlight the space. I think that's a good compromise between those who really want warnings and those who prefer not to have them.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

More than A/N, I love DVD commentary ♥ and yeah I love it when people talk about the writing and how and why^^^

I don't think with any kind of fic that just one label will always fit, especially with longer fics. You can have romantic comedy, romantic action, comedic action, dramedy... just one label isn't going to fit necessarily.
Absolutly!! No mutually exclusive labels!!

I try to do the highlight space trick ideally. Otherwise I think I do put a character death pairing more often than not. I just don't like to be warned, myself, when I read fics ^^ but i bow to the majority.

[mnemosyne-1.livejournal.com]

I like your list of categories that you added - makes so much sense...

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

I've started to bookmark all my to-read fic on del.icio.us and one of the tags I'm giving fics is length. I have suddenly developed a huge hate-on for people who don't include word count. :p Especially if a story is spread over multiple chapters. It's one thing for me to highlight and do a quick word count if it's on one page, but if your story is twenty chapters, no way. And I have no way of knowing if those twenty chapters are a thousand words each, or five thousand.

[mnemosyne-1.livejournal.com]

Or 10,000. *g* I've had that one happen before. And the story was lovely, but I would have liked to know that I was going to be up until 4am reading the darn thing b/c when I started it at 11pm, I had no idea how long it was! If I know, then I can bookmark for reading the next day, instead of getting sucked into a vortex of can't-stop-reading plot.

[laurus-nobilis.livejournal.com]

To make things even worse, the definition of "gen" also varies from fandom to fandom. I first heard of it the HP fandom in 2001; then and there, it meant "any fic that doesn't focus on romance" (at least, in the corner of HP fandom where I played). The way I've learned it, it can include pairings as long as the romance isn't the focus. For example, a fic about James and Lily going on an adventure and fighting Death Eaters would be gen, even if they're a couple.

I've read some of the posts at metafandom, though, and I know that's not always the case. I remember a while ago you mentioned you saw gen as "no pairings whatsoever"; I don't agree with that, but I can see the logic in it. But there are other definitions that I just don't get. I don't see how a canon pairing is "more" gen than a non-canon pairing.

I also think the issue is that we're thinking of these categories as mutually exclusive. What is gen cannot be het, what is het cannot be slash, what is slash cannot be gen. Which is bollocks. There's nothing saying a story couldn't focus on both a canon-like-plot and a non-canon Romance! Nor is there anything saying that a story can't be focussed on two couples, one het, one slash.

I agree completely with that. But what strikes me most in this entry is this:

If we want categies denoting genres/focus, "Romance", "Drama", "Action/Adventure", "Character exploration", "Smut", etc. make much better descriptors

That is so, so true. It seems like such an obvious solution, but very few people do it. I wonder if part of the reason is that fandom is so focused on shipping. You have slash or het, and everything else gets lumped as gen... when it would make more sense to just label the shippy fics as "romance" or "smut" and then separate them as slash/het or just name the pairing(s). The non-pairing fics could be divided according to its genre. The current classification is very pairing-centric, separating into "romance/smut" and "everything else".

The way I label my own fics is in-between, sort of. When I write something that focuses on a pairing, I label it as Romance and mention the pairing. Most of my fics are gen, though, and I label those as Genfic and something else: humour, introspection, adventure, etc. I do think "gen" is too broad.

On the other hand, and because I can't please everyone... I know there are people who would want a pairing warning on fics that I consider gen. That's why I have so many fics tagged as genfic *and* Clow/Yuuko.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Yes! One thing that's very fascinating to see in this debate is how many different definitions of Gen there is. And of course, all these definitions are valid in that they help the people find the fic that they want to find. Except of course, calling all of them "Gen" isn't handy.

I do see how canon pairing are more "Gen" than others. Like if I write about Subaru post-TB, even if I don't focus on his relationship with Seishirou, I can't ignore it because it influences too much Subaru's personnality. So even a "Gen" focussed fic about Subaru would have to have a little bit of Subaru/Seishirou.

You know I do think there are slash/he stories which are not "romance" or "smut". I say this because I love non-romantic pairings, hatesex and the like, and if you label "het" or "slash" only the fic which are either erotica or romance, I'm not sure I'll be able to find all of the fics I love. Of course maybe i just need to stretch the definition of romance a little. (I also heard people say a fic could have sexual descriptions and be Gen!)

I really think your way of labelling is best. You jut need more descriptions ^^

[laurus-nobilis.livejournal.com]

I like your explanation of canon vs. non-canon pairings. I hadn't thought about it that way, it makes sense. I guess my example of "James and Lily fighting Death Eaters" would need a warning if they were, say, Remus and Sirius. Hmmm.

You just need more descriptions
Oh, you're definitely right about that ¬_¬ I'm working on it, I promise...

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Haha, sorry, I didn't mean you you, I meant you any person. Shouldn't have mixed two meaning for the same pronoun into just one sentence.

[sakanagi.livejournal.com]

I find those sorts of labels a bit confusing. I never use 'slash or 'het' as a label, but I have used 'gen' every now and then when I couldn't think of anything else to put the genre down as. Character exploration sounds like a good description; maybe I'll use that sometime.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Hehe, I find that a lot of my fics are Character exploration/study ^^ so I use the word often.

I don't really use "slash" or "het" apart from when I talk meta, either. I think of fics by pairings you know?

[dizilla.livejournal.com]

Usually my labels are in my Author's Notes. I normally don't think of those labels unless I'm uploading to ff.n. I get worried with Gen in fic fests as it seems that they want no relationships whatsoever in gen fics so I worry about unconscious innuendos.

I usually put noromo relationships under gen as my definition is broad. When I think of gen, I think of just story with no focus on any one particular pairing even if they are present.

Great observations.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

unconscious unnuendos ♥ XDD

I think most people see noromo relationships as Gen!! (I hope so, at least)

[moonmip.livejournal.com]

If we want categies denoting genres/focus, "Romance", "Drama", "Action/Adventure", "Character exploration", "Smut", etc. make much better descriptors

I certainly think this is true, and I can't but help the cynical thought that by doing so, we would have cottoned on to the methods used by the print press for years. :) I personally use Gen to mean a fic that is rated for a general audience, rather than one indicating no pairings, but I am aware these two definitions exist (causing multiple headaches in their wake).

But yeah, people want to be warned against the pairings they dislike, in every cases, so warning for pairings all the time should be the best behaviour.

I must admit, I shy away from that sort of perspective. To me, it smacks of spoilers - when we see a movie, or read a book, we don't always get forewarned what the pairings will be. We just have to wait and see. Part of the problem, I suspect, is so many fans read fanfic to read more about the particular pairing they like, rather than of the show in general. So many stories these days are defined by the pairing involved rather than the actual content of the story (of which the pairing is part, but certainly not everything).

Okay, so non-exhaustive list of genres I can think of right now

How about Alternante universe? I don't think it comes under your definition of World exploration, because you specify that as exploring an aspect of canon while AUs throw some aspects of canon out the window (and I mean some, if you throw away *all* aspects of canon, including characterisation, then you're basically writing an original story but taking the character names from someone else).

I can also see people objecting to you putting Romance and Smut in together - it depends on whether one is defining Romance in the Harlequin novel style or Gone With the Wind style - one is pretty much thinly veiled fantasy porn, the other is purely emotional and sex is not a core aspect (indeed, it's often danced around but not mentioned overtly).

This was quite a timely post for me; I've been dwelling on the use of genres in fanfic (like large portions of fandom at the moment!) and the way we 'sell' our stories to others - including ratings, genres and summaries. This is giving me some extra things to muse on, thanks!

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

I personally use Gen to mean a fic that is rated for a general audience, rather than one indicating no pairings, but I am aware these two definitions exist (causing multiple headaches in their wake).
Or three, or four, or five definitions ^^ yes, definitly headaches-inducing.
I'd rather use "G-rated" to mean intended for general audience...

To me, it smacks of spoilers - when we see a movie, or read a book, we don't always get forewarned what the pairings will be.
Yeah, but people in fanfic are often indeed very concerned about pairings, so I think we need to address it. It's often the whole point of a fic regardless of the plotty content. I also think that it's very rare for there to be a suspence about the main pairing in fanfics (see my answer to ll_shepherd), sp I don't think it's really spoilery.

How about Alternante universe? I think A/U are an important warning, but I wouldn't classify it as a category. It's more about the relationship to canon than descriptive of the tone of the content. An A/U could be a romance, a plotty story, a comedy, or anything at all really.

I can also see people objecting to you putting Romance and Smut in together
I think for this we need to have a very broad definition of Romance, seeing it as any story that is focussed on a relationship which may end up being sexual, even if it's not "romantic" by the traditionnal sense of the word. (I personnally read a LOT of "romance" stories which are hate/love and mindfuck and otherwise not Harlequin or Gone with the Wind-like.)

Oh! I'm very excited about what you'll come up with about ratings, genres and summaries! Do comment to me when you do, please ^^

[(Anonymous)]

I don't like the way printed novels do things, though. Although I guess they never have warnings so they'll get more readers. I know I never would have read the Thomas Covenant books if I'd known there was a rape scene.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

I don't like the way printed novels do things, though
Fair enough. Do you have any better categories than the printed novels' one, then?

I know I never would have read the Thomas Covenant books if I'd known there was a rape scene.
That's an interesting exemple. Every time I see anyone reccing this serie, they tend to warn about it. And people telling how they knew there was the rape scene, so then, they could go past it and enjoy the serie.

I hadn't been warned myself and didn't miss it, but then again, I hardly pay attention to non con warnings in fanfics either. (and in fanfic there's much greater chance for it to be smut than in the Unbeliever serie).

[lil-shepherd.livejournal.com]

Personally, I really, really dislike the 'pairings' business because it is giving away too much of what plot there might be.

Now, if we could have labels that said:

"Bad grammar," or "Character assassination" I might approve.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

If it was anything but fanfic, I'd agree with you that it's spoilerish. However... the great majority of people in fandom, I believe, want to read specific pairings. There are very, very few fanfic plots were there's a real suspence about what main pairing is (regardless of whether there's a happy ending for them), even in triangle configurations.
When it's the case people often tag it, for exemple, "Remus/?". I think that's a fair warning. It says : Remus is paired with someone I don't want to reveal for suspence reason, read at your own risk. But this is a rarity.

I wish there was a Character assassination warning too ^^

[rahirah]

The problem I have with the definition of gen which is being thrown around (and user has a whole post about this) is that it's based completely on what a story is not: gen is a story with no romance in it. Which doesn't tell me what a story is at all.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's why I think it's (mostly) not a good category. Even if I understand why people (sometimes) don't want to read shippy stories.