RPG, Fanfic, Shoujo, Gender, oh my

[salinea]

So I'm reading RPG.net, which is a big and quality board about roleplaying games, and someone raises the idea of "Harlequin Romance... the RPG" as a possible licenced RPG to touch a previously untapped market. So I miggle in the discussion, and mention my view about the similarities between RPGs and fanfics, and freeform RPGs within the fandom community, and their potential as a RPG market. It's an interesting discussion.
Then there's this guy that comes and mentions the game he publishes, HeartQuest, which a game meant to simulate the Shoujo manga genre. Cool. Very fitting to the discussion. I google quickly the game (because I didn't know it before, does any of you guys do?) and find a blurb description (very cute) and a list of the writers :

Written by: Michael Hopcroft, Robert Pool, Dimitri Ashling, Ewen Cluney, Robert Boyd, Robert Bain, Ismael Alvarez, Travis Johnson, and Douglas Larke.

Hum? I think. I'm not sure about Travis and Ewen because I'm not that good with American names, but all of the others are very, very male names. That's an overwhelming majority (at least) of male writers to write a RPG to simulate the Shoujo genre.
So in the discussion I mention I'm surprised by that, and the guy asks me why, so I elaborate.

Quote:
Why should that shock you? It isn't like all shoujo stuff is written by women, nor is it's audience all young girls (despite being marketed to them). Just like the fact that all romance novels aren't written by women either.

Well, that not all shoujo is written by women or read by women is all well and good, and what percent of it is written and read by women? I'd be surprised if there wasn't a very big majority of women involved there, but I could be wrong, I only have my personnal experience to judge by.

I assume you've done market researches about that game? That you have some data about Shoujo audience in the US? The profile of people more likely to be interrested into that kind of game? With this game, I assume you're trying to tap onto shoujo readers (that's why you mention the next ed in manga form, no?)
I'm a shoujo reader. I'd especially kill for a game that'd let me play an unholy alliance of Shoujo Kakumei Utena and Princess Tutu complete with meta-narrative tools and fairy tale on crack ambiance. I'd probably also love to play X1999 RPG.

However I also remember a French amateur RPG which was called "Lycéenne" which was plain horrible. Shoujo seen by males and full of ill-adviced stereotypes at its worst. So I'm suspicious. And I'm Roleplayer so I know how sexist the average RPG scene can be, so I'm doubly suspicious. If I see a long list of male names as authors, I get even more suspicious. Doesn't seem like something for me. Seems like something for guys who are already into RPG and who wants to play shoujo for exoticism's sake, the kind who think Hina Love is a shoujo.

I don't know anything about the game, as I told you, I just googled it. And that's my first impression. Maybe I'm not typical of the market you're trying to touch either

Then the guy gets angry :

I find charges of sexism against my products made by someone who has not read them to be incredibly offensive. While the HeartQuest line was written before I owned the company, I still stand behind them 100%. I also find charges that they weren't written by knowledgeable individuals to not only be offensive but you are also veering into personal attack territory because at least two of the authors are members of this very board.

As a publisher I take allegations against my products very seriously and I strongly suggest that you rescind your comments, as they are based out of a lack of knowledge of the books. I do welcome anyone checking out the HeartQuest line but I find your comments to be ill-formed and offensive to both myself and the individuals who wrote these books.

I tell him he missed the point.

So he starts getting on how shoujo is totally not about women, and gender is irrelevant about discussion on RPG adaptations of Shoujo.

I don't see that shoujo or romantic fiction as being a gender issue. I don't think one gender "gets it" more than another, any more than I think that is the case for any other genre. Saying otherwise does a great disservice to those individuals, male or female, who are interested in those sorts of things.

And that's where we are.

Apart from the part where he's trying very hard to intimidate me, I find his exhuberant outrage very funny.

Comments

[cafecomics.livejournal.com]

Sidenote : Harlequin manga exist !

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Groovy! Now we need an Harlequin manga RPG XD

[cafecomics.livejournal.com]

Pour revenir au sujet, c'est sûr qu'il est sur la défensive ! Si on vise un public féminin, il me parait quand même évident de demander un/des avis féminins et d'inclure des femmes dans le processus de réalisation.

Ceci dit, quand il dit ça :

It isn't like all shoujo stuff is written by women

Je me demande s'il n'inclut pas dans le lot les comédies romantiques shônen ou seinen. Parce que je suis désolé mais romance =/= shôjo. Vigeo Girl Ai, I''s, Ichigo 100%, Kashimashi ~ Girl meets Girl ne sont pas des shôjo (même si Ichigo 100% est dessiné par une femme).

What are the current shoujo titles written by men ? Osamu Tezuka created the genre with Ribbon no Kishi/Prince Saphir. I remember some of the the first works by Mitsuru Adachi being serialized in shoujo magazines (Hiatari Ryôkô/une vie nouvelle in Shôjo Comic). Apart from these ?

As for the second part of his statement. Err, I'm a guy and I read a lot of shoujo/josei. ^^;

[schemingreader.livejournal.com]

I don't know whether women have special insight into writing romance for women.There is something kind of icky about hiring a whole crew of male writers and not PAYING any women for writing that is pitched to women. That seems kind of creepy to me. Like they couldn't find a single female writer who was capable of writing for this market?

Or maybe those are all pseudonyms. That would be even weirder!

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

I've no idea. They are some female RPG wroters, definitly. (Rebecca Sean Borgstrom for exemple, is a relatively famous one), but they're probably a small compagny so I don't know how easy to find them it would have been. But I don't even know if they even wondered "oh, we're writing a shoujo adaptation, let's try to find women writers", or if they straight out skipped the phase of writing the game. They don't seem very self concious that way.

[schemingreader.livejournal.com]

Ah, I see. Most of the RPG writers are male, and this happens to be an RPG for a genre with a largely female audience. Now I understand how they got here.

Hmm. I wonder why they have more male than female writers for RPGs.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Because there's a lot of more male players of RPGs than female?

I mean it's not like the female to male ratio of the fanfic community, but there's definitly fewer female players.

[bitterfig.livejournal.com]

I've never played RPG's and I'm not really sure how they work but I'd be curious to see if the male vision of shoujo would include the shounen-ai/slash elements that are very much apart of both fan fiction and many popular shoujo series ranging from X1999 to Utena to Vampire Knight to Fruits Basket.

I'd especially kill for a game that'd let me play an unholy alliance of Shoujo Kakumei Utena and Princess Tutu complete with meta-narrative tools and fairy tale on crack ambiance. I've never played RPG's and I haven't seen Princess Tutu yet but I think if this game existed I'd also kill for it.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

The amateur I mentionned above, Lycéenne, was full of pictures of your high school girls with short skirts. Not pretty bishie anywhere near, it was sad.
I hope their game indeed gets the prettyboys appeal, it would be interesting. I'm half of a mind to get it and write a long critic of it now XD. There's a game, Exalted, which does get the bishi and shounen ai tropes very well (and some shoujo ai too, and lots of gender fucks), it's a big, bestseller game that does a lot of other things such as action, big FF-like swords and high fantasy, but I was very happy to find a game that did that.

You should totally see Princess Tutu ^^
I'm having a specific system in mind for the Utena-Tutu merge, but I'm waiting for the update to be released and there's no firm date on it, sadly.

[ariss-tenoh.livejournal.com]

Clearly he doesn't understand what "shoujo" means. I bet he thinks of it in the literal meaning of "girl" because I can tell you right now that a shoujo RPG or sim game would have pictures of pretty boys on the cover.

It's just a fanboy expressing his "poor misunderstood self". *rolls eyes* I've seen too many of them online to be sympathetic.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

I love the way he never answered any of my pointed questions about market research and real data.

Oh, and the part where he said "labour of love". My heart weeps for him, truely, it does.

[keelieinblack.livejournal.com]

Bleh. Reminds me of when DC announced their Minx line, specifically aimed at teenage girls--and only two out of the fourteen creators of the lineup were female. I'm not saying that men can't write or create works for women, or vice versa, but it is a bit odd. The fact that this guy got so defensive about it right away is even more suspicious.

(And though I was never heavily into gaming, I waaaant that Utena/Tutu setup.)

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

haha, 2 out of 14, well at least it's better. Really it's amazing how not self-aware people can be.

The way he got so defensive is the most funny thing about it ^^; shouting himself in the foot, much?

I need to work hard on the Utena/Tutu setup, I had some notes somewhere...

[mnemosyne-1.livejournal.com]

I really dislike when people say that "gender is irrelevant" because I don't believe it's true. Gender is very relevant. Men and women think differently, act differently, see things differently, etc. Of course, there are exceptions in each gender, but generally, this I see each gender as different.

I think what he does, which some people tend to do, is assume that "different" means "not equal" (i.e. that one gender is beneath the other) and that is simply not true.

I think it disturbs me that it is all men who've written the game (as far as I know, Ewen and Travis are both male names - I know of no females with those names). Even if it's a good game, I prefer to deal with companies that at least make an effort to include another gender. Even if female players are a smaller crowd than the male players, it does not mean they are nonexistant.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

I really dislike when people say that "gender is irrelevant" because I don't believe it's true.
Especially when it's that groundless!

I wouldn't have mind him having male writers. It's the fact he didn't even have female writers. I think 50/50 in such cases is mandatory!

I think what he does, which some people tend to do, is assume that "different" means "not equal" (i.e. that one gender is beneath the other) and that is simply not true.
I think it's self entitlement. As man he's offensed (offensed he tells us!) that anyone could consider him or any other male as not the best alker on the subject of a female genre. He should be entitled to talk about anything he wants, damnit! *chuckles*

(as far as I know, Ewen and Travis are both male names - I know of no females with those names). Thanks for the info. I wasn't sure of that, and that makes it all the more upsetting.

I admit it might be difficult in such a male medium as RPG to find female writers for a small, starting compagny... but when you deliberatly try for a genre like shoujo trying to find some female writers should be mandatory.

[xraytheenforcer.livejournal.com]

tough to make a call -- I'm in a field where finding decent women writers is rather tough (science/tech writing that ISN'T biology-focused), and even if I go out of my way to find a balance, sometimes it just ain't there.

That said, I am sure that it's come up in their internal discussions that there's a marked lack of females writing to a distinctly female genre. Not that men can't write decent women's roles, but that things like game-play might be different if a different gender was included.

Since, AFAICT, he didn't explain that they had a tough time finding a female writer, I'd stipulate that maybe they didn't try very hard. But at the same time I'd be rather annoyed (although maybe better at dealing with it), if I got letters accusing me of sexism because I don't hire female feature writers (which actually isn't true -- I think 80% of my regular writers are women, actually. ha. But most of them don't write in the feature well.)

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

I'm in a field where finding decent women writers is rather tough (science/tech writing that ISN'T biology-focused), and even if I go out of my way to find a balance, sometimes it just ain't there.
Yeap, I understand that. It's RPG, and they were probably a small, beginning compagny when they wrote this game. But he didn't even use that as a defence!
I hope the point came up, I really, really hope. I wish I could trust that it was. My own small incursion in the world of RPG publishers didn't endear me a lot to their professionnalism (although we were a lot of women there, at least!)

I don't think I accused him of sexism. I tried to get the point out that if they want to sell to female gamers and get female shoujo fans into gaming (which they seem to do), then it wouldn't give their game the best impression to have an all male crew of writers. It's common sense.

[cygna-hime.livejournal.com]

Shoujo is not for women. Riiiight. And it's called shoujo because...?

I don't believe that different genders inherently have different tastes. However, products "for women" and products "for men" are marketed to the social idea of the genders--romance novels, for example, are marketed to a certain kind of person. Almost all people who like and are willing to admit (even to themselves) to liking that kind of thing are women. Not all women like romance novels (I don't), but very few men do (or, at any rate, will shell out money in public for them in any quantity). Such is the nature of a market. People mostly tend to write what they like to read; it takes serious effort to produce for a market you don't consume. Why do you think so many romance novelists are women?

To be fair, it's theoretically possible that this game was made by a bunch of men all capable of getting in touch with that inner thirteen-year-old girl in all of us. Theoretically. But, y'know, somehow I doubt it.

Besides, a mixed group of creators is always better for the final product than a homogenous group. More angles on the subject means more thinking about the subject means a better product.

Also, "not written by knowledgeable individuals"? Well, I hate to break it to him, but none of those men have been a teenage girl. I would bet money that precious few of them are willing to imagine being a teenage girl, really imagine how it feels as a real person, either. Some men will, but they're (sadly) rare in this world. So, really, stating that this game was made by people who have never been teenage girls is hardly offensive.

Sometimes people can be really dumb.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

I don't believe that different genders inherently have different tastes. However, products "for women" and products "for men" are marketed to the social idea of the genders--romance novels, for example, are marketed to a certain kind of person. Almost all people who like and are willing to admit (even to themselves) to liking that kind of thing are women.
My thoughts, exactly!

To be fair, it's theoretically possible that this game was made by a bunch of men all capable of getting in touch with that inner thirteen-year-old girl in all of us. Theoretically. But, y'know, somehow I doubt it.
Somehow I do, too. Maybe they're good writers, but not including women at all in the writing is just silly.

Some men will, but they're (sadly) rare in this world.
Oh, boy! yes, quite.

Sometimes people can be really dumb.
That's a very good conclusion XD

[dizilla.livejournal.com]

Well I clicked on the demo and it seems the artists are female along with the art director. But that seems to be the extent of it.

He does seem to get on the defensive pretty quickly, and nowhere in your post did you mention that his game was sexist, just that the only one you found in your country happened to be.

I personally wouldn't buy this rpg cause it just looks too amateurish and clicheic.

I do like BESM, cause at least with that RPG system you could make it however you want, especially if you bought the suppliments. Too bad the line didn't go very far.

Oh and the Harlequin mangas look pretty neat. I see them at the bookstore sometimes. They're basically written by well known Harlequin authors and drawn in almost old fashioned shoujo style by Japanese mangaka.

[sakanagi.livejournal.com]

That icon never fails to amuse me. ^^

Anyway, I don't see why that guy got so worked up. Your message seemed polite to me. Expressing concerns about the product, yes, but hardly being 'incredibly offensive'.

An Utena/Tutu style game basically provokes a *drool* reaction in me. It sounds so much more fun than a standard RPG; there'd be a whooshing noise as I rushed off to play such a thing, if it existed. Ah yes, I should mention that I've read a good Utena/Tutu fanfic recently which you might also like - 'Two Archetypes in Search of a Story' over at the quillofferings comm - though it's a locked community.

[steph-annie2000.livejournal.com]

I agree that the most amusing thing about the ordeal is how quickly he gets on the defense. Probably you struck a nerve, and it is a concern he himself is worried about, but does not know how to solve so is unwilling to admit is a problem. A cooler head would have done him better good.

I think it is silly to say Shoujo has nothing to do with gender, when the word itself depicts the market it is aimed at! If his male writers are long time shojou fans who all relentlessly researched the material... all he had to say was "Don't worry, you will not find that kind of narrow few on shojou in this RPG" He needs to work on giving a more professional face to his dealings with critics, I think.

[azure-empress.livejournal.com]

I have the game in question.

It is... fair.

The people who wrote has watched a lot of anime, and certainly a lot of shojo classics.

But do not expect anything new from it whatsoever.
It uses a very standard resolution mechanic, the usual viewpoints on timeline and viewpoint. There are certainly no mechanics to support any kind of game or storytelling not already seen in tons of other games like BESM or even GURPS.

Does contain a few good ideas and example worlds, my favorite being the one placed in early 18th century Germany and aiming very closely for Rose of Versailles.

But even Panty Explosion has better and more interesting mechanics.