Prayers

[salinea]

Do you think you need to believe in God to pray?

Sometimes, I want to pray for something, but because I'm agnostic, I kinda feel awkward.

In Zelazny's Creatures of Light and Darkness, there's this agnostic prayer :

Insofar as I may be heard by anything, which may or may not care what I say, I ask, if it matters, that you be forgiven for anything you may have done or failed to do which requires forgiveness. Conversely, if not forgiveness but something else may be required to insure any possible benefit for which you may be eligible after the destruction of your body, I ask that this, whatever it may be, be granted or withheld, as the case may be, in such a manner as to insure your receiving said benefit. I ask this in my capacity as your elected intermediary between yourself and that which may not be yourself, but which may have an interest in the matter of your receiving as much as it is possible for you to receive of this thing, and which may in some way be influenced by this ceremony. Amen.

which I think is awesome. First because it's hilarious, second because "yay, agnostic prayer". The idea hat yes, you can express something religiously without renuncing what being agnostic means, and you can do beautifully. Which is odd, I don't think many people see agnosticism as a commitment. I mean, even atheism is more of a pronounciation of faith (in the non existence of God) than agnosticism. But, if I call myself an agnostic that's because for me it's the position I can hold which is the most honnest with myself. And that honnesty, of sincerity is something important for me.

So there's prayers as rituals. As parts in ceremonies in formalized religions. I never have any problems with those, because I see themas a commitment to a community, to its forms and culture. And judaism as a cultural identity, and belonging to the jewish community is something that's important for me.
Or if I'm there as a guest to a religious ceremony which I don't belong to, I see that as a simple form of respect and politeness to my hosts.
So I don't think you need to believe in G*d for those prayers.

There's the time when it's an expression of caring and wishing well someone. Well, usually I just write/thing "sending positive thoughts to you" or "I hope things are going to improve for you". Sometimes I don't really put it into words. But some people would say "I pray for your wel being". So, is that a prayer?

There's when you look around you, and the world is beautiful, and people are many, diverse, rich, and they all feel and act, and you're overwhelmed with it and you just want to say "thank you, thank you". I don't think I need to believe in God to be grateful to be alive and to live in the world. Because that expression is its own goal, you know? And I don't really always put it into words either, but it does feel like a religious feeling in a way.

Then... that's what I was getting earlier. I wanted a prayer to say "help me not being arrogant, self righteous and patronizing, and not thinking I know better than others." It could be anything of course; about selfishness, or courage, or to escape self loathing and despair. Anything about moral strength or wisdom. It's more of a resolution or a vow you make to oneself, so you don't really need to believe that something out there will help you with that, because it's really about the fact that expressing this resolution helps you holding it, right? Putting it into forms is helpful, is meaningful.

Any thoughts?

Comments

[flo-nelja.livejournal.com]

For moral strength, I pray to my friends or other people I admire.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

That's a lovely thought. Should keep it in mind!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I don't think you should feel awkward about it. Even if you're religious and believe in God God should be beyond your comprehension. I think it's natural to "pray" in the sense of reaching for something bigger than yourself for strength. I think your last paragraph is right, that it is about expressing it, putting it into forms--and also even asking for help and thinking that help will come without needing a personification of a deity for it.

In terms of what words to use, I have heard that it's better to make these things positive. So rather than saying what you *don't* want to be (which winds up listing those things) you should say what you do what to be so that's what you're hearing yourself describe. Like "give me the wisdom and courage to have compassion and understanding for others." Something like that?

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Even if you're religious and believe in God God should be beyond your comprehension.
Well, that'd depend on which religion I'd be religious about :)

I like what you say about keeping it positive. Because I don't think there's anything good in putting oneself down. But I also want to be careful of... you know, how sometimes, you are (you think) compassionate and understanding to others, but because you are that, and also because you think you're right about something, intellectually, that they don't agree with, you can end up being patronizing. I guess the positive of it is praying for humility, which is hard frame of mind to put oneself into. Trying to be humble without thinking that being humble makes oneself better.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Good point--definitely put humiliaty in there. Because yeah, it's very easy to get into "I'm so compassionate in the way I know better than these people but don't tell them so."

[werthead.livejournal.com]

As a lapsed Catholic and quasi-sceptical agnostic ("Well I kinda believe in something but not really an old guy with a beard, y'know, fluffy clouds and harps don't sound too much fun, but hey whatever,") this is a very interesting point.

I always thought the Minbari attitude in Babylon 5 was pretty good: just say a prayer to the Universe or Fate, and have faith in yourself, your friends or your family, if you don't want to pray to a god in the religious sense.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

heh, I think there's a lot of different kinds of faith yes, and the old guy with a beard is only one of them. When I'm in a believing mood, I tend to be pantheistic myself, because that's the only way I can conceive omniscience in a way that feels right.

Still need to watch B5 I guess! And yes, I can see that. Faith in the universe, others and oneself.

[rosehiptea.livejournal.com]

I don't think you need to worry about praying. I don't think there's anything wrong with "Hey, if anyone's listening, then...." It's about you, in the end, because if there is a G-d he doesn't need our prayers... and it's all good.

Which may sound cheap and feel-good, but I honestly mean it.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

That's a good point! And yes, I agree in the end it's about you!

[rebbe]

This is a really thought provoking post! So thoughtful of you~ I have to agree that praying is not necessarily directed at a god, or at God, or at some other being divine. It just... is.

The agnostic prayer is hilariously awesome

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

glad you liked my thoughts ^^

isn't it? You should read some Zelazny!

[hamsterwoman]

Being in essentially the same position as you, I don't have any advice, but I do want to say that I love the agnostic prayer (never seen it before, but it's AWESOME -- hilarious, as you say, and also oddly moving).

I never have any problems with those, because I see themas a commitment to a community, to its forms and culture. And judaism as a cultural identity,

Exactly true for me, too -- I have very strong emotional connections to many of the major holidays (Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, and Pessach especially) for this reason, while not actually having any *faith* or following kashrut or shabbat or anything.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

heh, it's always great to know I'm not alone in my position ^^ Those are the same holidays I always do no matter what.

I do find it oddly moving as well, in context too... it was said about a dying/dead man (don't remember which).

[miss-sand.livejournal.com]

Etant capable de lire littéralement quand ça m'arrange, je retiens des évangiles ces paroles - qui ont guidé la plupart de mes choix de non-religion - prêtées à Jésus : et un jour arrivera où il n'y aura plus besoin d'églises car le coeur de chaque homme sera Son église (en gros, je n'ai pas retenu la formulation exacte).

En conséquence, exit toute forme d'église et de religion, mes actes et ma vie sont mon témoignage et mes prières. "To who it may concern". L'important c'est d'émettre, la réception est hors-sujet.

C'est une attitude arrogante pour la plupart des suivants d'une religion, et des gens en général, mais je m'en contrefous. C'est une affaire privée entre le(s) truc(s) qui écoute(nt) peut-être et moi. A défaut, entre Moi et moi ^^°.

A part ça la "prière des agnostiques" est rigolote ^^

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Oui, c'est une attitude assez typique du protestantisme en fait, et du changement qu'il y a eu dans le Christianism a ce moment là. C'est vrai que c'est une idée interessante.

J'adore Zelazny quand il s'y met ^^

[solesakuma]

The agnostic prayer is awesome, yep.

And while I'm agnostic, I do pray. To nothing in particular, just... you know, I say 'Please, give me strength' or 'Please, let X happen'. It makes me feel better.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Aah, yes, that makes sense. Feeling better should totally be a priority :)

[harumi.livejournal.com]

As an atheist I have no problem praying at temples, but then, for me, prayer isn't really about throwing myself to some higher power. It's usually a quiet moment for me that allows me to recognize and reaffirm my goals. Rather than a plea, it's more of a gathering of strength.

Once I'm done I then proceed to do things the best I can. The prayer allowed me to remember what I want, and with a much clearer mind, I do it.

Of course, if the gods actually do exist and help me along the way, that's no bad thing either. I just think it's highly, highly unlikely. Like nil.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Interesting!

[scriva.livejournal.com]

Interesting thoughts.

There's when you look around you, and the world is beautiful, and people are many, diverse, rich, and they all feel and act, and you're overwhelmed with it and you just want to say "thank you, thank you".

That's very true. Saying "thank you" to someone is one of the reasons, why I pray sometimes. I also have clearly religious feelings in regard to sacral music, and not only European music. The music in which generations bfore have expressed their faith has still some inherent qualities for me and can give me a clear mind or help me to sort out some negative experiences.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

religious music is often very beautiful and movie, I agree.